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Steve Neal
| | Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 11:28 am: | |
Hello Juerg,
So I am going to start all over.
I have VC of 5.2
I did ramp test on 3 L bag today, in front of mirror and focused on breathing properly the entire time...It was actually easier to spiro this way, more control of bar graph and so on...no more physical challenge really but much more mental coordination problem...
Following is the data...
RR HR Rlx in ms spo2
15 81 16 97
18 89 10 98
21 89 7 98
24 95 5 98
27 100 7 98
30 93 6 97
33 99 11 96
Just wondering what the next step is to determining the right size bag for right now?
How do I tell relative to VC what the correct bag size is? As I understand that there is VC - dead space - ??? anything else other than bag size?
Thanks,
Steve
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steve neal
| | Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 11:10 pm: | |
Here is my test data from 2.3 L bag.
RR HR SPO2
21 63 96
24 67 97
27 67 97
30 67 97
33 71 96
36 75 96
39 85 97
42 88 96
45 92 94
SN |
Juerg
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 10:09 am: | |
Thanks Steve for your Data.
Here some thoughts we did ,before we started to work with the Spiro Tiger.
To move a certain amount of air may need a certain amount of work from the respiratory system.
As more air you move as more energy needed for this muscles, as less available for other muscles ( Metaboreflex idea )
Now if you cover 100 km on a bike , you can do this with high or low RPM.
To move air you can do this with high or low RR.
Like in the first example with the RPM you have a so called optimal RPM , meaning you have the most efficent way to go from a to b .
Breathing the same you may have an optimal RR , meaning you have the best possible coordination , using mainly the respiratory muscles ( not the assesory muscles.) again the same on the bike , where you may go a too high RPM, not using anymore you optimal coordination.
Now how can you use the numbers we see above sent to us by Steve.
In the 3 L bag step test his O2 Sat starts to drop by 33 RR
In the 2.3 L bag his O2 Sat drops by arround 42.
Now as in the 100 km example, the question here is , how much air is he moving in 1 min.
3 litre bag 2.3 litre bag
RR L/min RR L/min
33 128 42 125
32 124 41 122
31 120 40 119
As you can see the O2 Sat dropped by a certain L/min in both cases basically by the same volume.
So Steves respiration system has for the moment a limit of 120 l/min and if he is moving air above that amount , he starts to reduce O2 Sat , resp. there is the discussion , that above that amount the metaboreflex may start to reduce the performance in his legs.
Now this is only , if he is just breathing.
The amount of energy needed to move for Steve 120 L/ min of air is very high.
How high: well if Steve is sitting on his bike,
and will try to bike and in the same time is breathing 2.3 liter bag 42 or 3 liter bag 32 , it would be interesting what kind of wattage he can move. ( An absolut world class cyclist G.H is able to use 3 l bag and just is able to move 150 wattage , bevor his O2 Sat drops down to 80 % , whichis actually not very smart PaCO2 may be too high , but it for sure stimmulates his buffer system. Exactly these is the question we try to find an answer. with the upcoming research. )
Now based on that , he can try to reduce the RR first down to 20 and see whether he can still bike and what wattage . If O2 still is dropping he can try a smaller bag and so on and everybody , who tries this will be surprised , how slow you can move , if you push your breathing to the limit.
Now second point.
Your dead space is app. 200 ml
If you breath with a 3 l bag 33 RR you move 6 liter dead space in 1 min.
If you use a 2.3 L bag you will move 8 L of dead space for the same amount , and therefor reduce the O2 and CO2 exchange rate .Calculate this for a 1 hour or 4 hour race and you see how much "empty breathing " you are doing , meaning you move air , with "no value ".
Now as faster you breath as smaller the tidal volume and as higher the percentage of dead space.
Once the breathing is so shallow and fast the dead space percentage is so big , that you create besides the hypoxy O2 Sat down ) an additional Hypercapnia ( CO2 up and you start to get some problem .
Summary .
Once you have set your optimal RR you basically can calculate the optimal RR for the different bag sizes , as long you are able to keep a proper coordination and the bag size is not bigger than your VC.
Now over time with training your respiratory system , you will see , that by the same RR and the same bag size you still see a stabel O2 sat and that's the way you can control progress on the one side , but much more important, that's the way you control fatigue of your breathing system
As you can see on Steves number, once you start understanding the influence of breathing on your performance you may start to agree , that there is a big chance to improve [performance here.)
The Spiro Tiger is for the moment the only tool you are able to do this.
Last idea. If you breath a 3 L bag with 30 RR for 5 min ( check air volume at the end. Now you bike on LBP for 30 min and immediatly after that biking you breath again 3 L bag 30 RR and check O2 Sat as well as air volume , you may be up for a surprise.
If somebody out there is doing just that , give us your infos and we can keep up the discussion as in Steves case. |
steve neal
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 10:25 am: | |
Thanks Juerg.
So basically I have a limit on my breathing L/min no matter the bag size, it is just like a different gear on the bike giving me a different RPM...but the limitation is the same...
So I can use about 125 L / min...and calculate even on a smaller 2.0 L bag to work on coordination...and if possible on a 4 L bag if I wanted but the 125 L / min would be the same but at a much lower RR than on the smaller bag...
So now I can start to work on different systems of my breathing by bag size and RR...
Let me know if you think I am on track...
Thanks for your great answers to my questions.
I will try the breathing before and after breathing...but I think I know what to expect...I just have to see how much worse I am...
Thanks again..Steve |
Juerg
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 01:19 pm: | |
Yes , that's exactly is it , you can work in different "gears" , now it may be that by the 2 litre bag , your gears are to easy and you will see a coordination problem. So you can see whther it is a coordination problem , on the L/ min you are able to move with a stable O2 sat. If you are below the target , so the coordination is the porblem.
On the other side if you take a 4 L bag, which should be possible with 5.3 VC your problem may be the contraction strenght of you diaphram , similar on a bike with a too big gear and the well known porblems you have, but at least it will show you the limitation.
Now once you have a much wider range of breathing ability over a 5 min period , you can test the same over 15 min or 30 min and you may see that the coordination may be good for 7 min and after that you "loose " it, or your 4 litre bag is no problem over 8 min and after that time it is over.
So you soon will find the bag size where coordination , as well as endurance are optimal , like you have an optimal RPM on your bike.
This shows you , that you can either produce a complet independant respiratory program on the one side , or you can integrate it into a circuit , or into a specifc problems of acidosis training.
Understanding now the consequences the fact has , that lactate is not the reason for acidosis will help you to understand, why we since years are very sceptical on test like MAP and max. VO2 and CP.
You either improve mitochondrial respiration, meaning you improve oxygen supply and CO2 elimination as long and as good as possible , or you deal with the problem of acidosis and the possibility to buffer H+.
This is very unlikely done with % of intensity zones , as well as all the so called " classical " models of lactate threshold severely underestimate H+ concentrations , because lactate and H= do not increase linera put only temporal.
I will try over the next few month , in connection with our new softwear to try to show , how we justify our zoning based on as good as possible biochemical infromation .
Have a nice weekend. |
steve neal
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 10:01 pm: | |
So another example;
different athlete...
VC 3.7
so far on 2.0 and 2.3 L bag the athlete is moving around 80 L per minute...on 2 L bag around 41 RR and 2.3 L bag around 35 RR...
Coordination is the issue...so I am just trying to understand the best way to improve coordination...
Highest RR on 2L bag with stable spo2? or should I move to the 2.3L at the highest athlete can handle with stable spo2?
My first guess is to go on 2 L bag and work at highest RR with stable spo2 and breathing properly...
Thanks for your input...
Steve |
Juerg
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 01:31 am: | |
Go to a 1.5 litre bag if you work with this a. on coordination . Take your example with 5.3 VC and a 2.3 l bag ( 50 % or less . ) 3. 7 ( 50 % or less ) .
She will have a hard time at the beginning. |
Juerg
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 08:25 am: | |
Okay here way 1.5 L more into details.
2.3 L bag 27 RR is 80 L/min as of your info , that the athlete can move 80 liter.
2.3 L 27 RR = 80 L/min
2 L 31 RR = 80 l / min
now if the RR by the LBP is higher than 31 , tha you have already a nice info , why the respiration may be one of the limitation in this athlete.
If you go now to 1.5 L bag 41 RR is 79 L/ min.
So if your athlete is breathing 40 RR on LBP she or he is moving 1.5 liter / min minus 200 ml easted air which leaves her or him with 1.3 L /min.
And this under conditions where this person is only breathing.
Now you add some activity to it and you will see , that even a 1 L or 0.5 L bag may be of some limitation.
So yes 1.5 liter is far big enough for coordination RR and if you once reach a RR of 55 or higher you move to 1.8 /L ( clamb of the 2 L bag ) and so on. . |
steve neal
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 09:24 am: | |
thanks so much Juerg...I will be able to test athletes breathing on LBP this thursday and will check that ... for now I will work on the 1.5L...
Should I just focus on that with athletes with coordination limiter? or is there still a benefit to working on endurance at the same time?
My thinking was that if we can improve the coordination to where it will be valuable to work endurance on a bag more relative to the athletes on the bike breathing...that would be more beneficial...what do you think?
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Juerg
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 11:02 am: | |
Possible answer.
If you have an athlete in biking or cross country skiing and you like to make a training program.
Would you only do technical ( coordiantion training ) or would you try to develp as well endurance ?
How many hours would you work on coordination with this bikers or skiers ?
Hope this helps . |
steve neal
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 12:16 pm: | |
so can i start to treat the breathing system like I do the other systems and focus on what needs developed at that time in that person?? make sense.
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Juerg
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 03:05 pm: | |
Yes , for all other readers, Steve is talking about the development of the respiratory system ( mainly diaphragm and intercostal muscles. )
Over years we may have neglected this particular system , but mainly due to the traditional thinking, plus the problem of the training methods.
As with so many areas in the field of sport/ medicin , as well as other topics , tradition may sometimes be in the way of progress. Nevertheless it is good to have always an open ear and mind , if new ideas show up , and it is critical to sort this into fashion , versus possibilities.
So, one of the next big topics , which may at least has to be reviewed ,in the way we use it and we spent money, is VO2 max testing resp. Ventilatory threshold. With the "old " ideas in mind , that lactate adds to acidosis, we may have pushed ourself in a corner , using ventilatory threshold as a so called non -invasive method to make a definition of "lactate threshold ".
What do we understand under Ventilatory threshold ?
You will see that if exercise intensity is increasing , the air in and out of your lung ( tidal volume or ventilation ) will increase as well and it looks somewhat linear or at least similar.
Now as the exercise intensity is increasing further , we suddently reach a point, where the ventilation starts to increase in a non - linear way. ( see during the FaCS ( Feldmann and Chlebek Spiro test) the RR ).
This point or moment, where ventilation deflects from the linearity is called the ventilatory threshold.(VT)
This VT can correspond ( but is not always identical ) with the development of muscle and blood H+ increase ( acidosis ) This is actually not new and nicely researched by Brook 1985 )
Buffer helpers in the blood , which are helpers to neutralize acidosis will increase the CO2 in the body and this leads to an elimination over the lung (increase of ventilation )
Now because this increase of ventilation occurs about at the same time , as blood lactate values increase and as well the acidosis, scientists believed , that this was an indication , that the ventilatory threshold and the lactate threshold occure by similar exercise intensities.
Now this would be great , because it is a non - invasive application.
Problem . Some studies show a very close correlation , but there are numbers of studies, which have demonstrated , that under certain conditions , this two values can differ substantially. ( the most famous out of this research may be the one from Neary et al 1985 )
What can be the reason of the difference ?
Nutritional situation, Carbo loading versus protein loading , and we see where the problem is : Again because of the "old mistake" of lactate -= acidosis. An other reason, we see now thanks to the Spiro Tiger training, is a difference in training status , = tired respiratory system or very weak respiratory system.
Now this few thoughts lead us to the question on accuracy and how usable is VO2 max for the actual definition of training zones.
Well let's see what comes nect .
Hve a nice rest of this weekend. |
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