| Author | Message | ||
     Kevin New member Username: Kevin Post Number: 2 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hi everyone, Here is an interesting discuss/question thread. Two weeks ago an athlete completed Ironman Canada. Before the event vital capacity (VC), as measured with a spiropet, was 5.8L. Two days after completing the event in slightly more than 10hrs, what do you think the athlete's VC would be? I asked several people what they thought the first VC value would be? The answers were very interesting and split evenly between increased VC and decreased VC. I will post the result tomorrow. Kevin | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 721 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks Kevin for this interesting info. We did this testing but only on long cycling events 5 years ago as an assessment on 150 riders in Giverola. The objective was 2 fold: - Is there really a difference between female and male cyclist, if we take actual body proportion ? - Is there a difference immediately after a long ride ( 180 km Mt. St . Hillary ) and if yes how many days' does it take to be back on the base line. So we did, as Kevin proposed ,a Spiro pet test just before the ride. / one 1/2 way 107 km on the top of the pass ( Altitude 1600 m ). t and at the end 0 m ) and than immediately at arrival. than the following 5 days always morning before breakfast. Besides the Spiro pet if we test respiratory reactions we do the standard respiratory tape measure protocol as for respiratory therapy with the 3 levels of measuring: a) Mammilar b) sternal ( Xiphoid) c) abdominal ( belly button ) As well we use a simple flow meter to see the expiration and inspiration power so to find out , whether the "fatigue" took place in the inspiration or expiration muscles. Reason. The testing with the Spiro pet only does not tell us the real VC level as compared in a fatigue situation. Example" If the inspiration was the fatigued part than you don't get a lot of air in , and therefor as well not a lot of air out so VC will drop. If the expiration part is fatigued you may get a lot of air in , but have some problem to get it out with the power needed for the air to move the small turbine in the Spiro pet. That's the weakness of the small, but cheap equipment, compared with a real VC testing equipment. By comparing fatigued expiration muscles we have VC differences of up to 2 liter before and after. In relaxed situation on healthy people very little difference. Main problem in people with COPD , where there is an obstruction already existing and they not just have a difference in the VCt1 ( ( Tiffenau test or the air they can blow out in 1 sec ) but as well in the VC T as the preassure produced at the end is too small to move the turbine. So this type of small testing are a lot of fun and can help each individual person to find some very specific recovery information for very specific training ideas. Another interesting functional test before and after an event like a marathon or a triathlon is a functional Spiro Tiger test. The easiest version is : Take a bag size and a respiration rate you can do in a recovered stage controlled and with stable SpO2 . Example 3 liter bag 25 RR and workout 30 min. Than repeat the same at the end of a race and than each following day and compare the total airflow. For all NOC centers you can combine the Spiro Tiger with the fitmate by either : Fixing the Fit mate turbine between mouthpiece and user set for total air volume control, or by the air outflow from the user set so you measure the "Overflow " of air and than you can calculate the volume of the bag size x RR plus the volume of the overflow to be sure you have an accurate total airflow. . For Fit mate owner , that is actually another way on how you can measure VC by using the airflow meter from the fit mate and testing that way. For people under an estimated VC of 4 liter you take the RMR turbine and for all estimated above you take the bigger one. There is a mouth piece with the the RMR testing you can use or you can take the mouth piece from a Spiro Tiger and combine it with some extension parts.( I often use Duct tape - smile ) Have fun to try it out and thanks to Kevin for the nice input. | ||
| Kevin New member Username: Kevin Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2006 |
Good points Juerg. The easy to use Spiropet highlights the reason SpiroTiger training is an important consideration for each athlete. The specific VC values recorded were: IMC +2 days 4.2L/4.3L IMC +3d 4.8L/4.7L IMC +4d 5.2L/5.2L IMC +5d 5.3L/5.2L IMC +6d 5.4L/5.5L IMC +7d 5.6L/5.6L No training occurred during the 7days post IMC. Only an occational easy walk took place. Lots of rest taken. There were perceived limitations reported during both inspiration as well as expiration efforts. One additional note was that VC did not return to 5.8L after 7days. Interesting observations and highlights the need to consider respiratory system fatigue/recovery during training and racing periods. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 724 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks Kevin for this very nice work done. It is a beautiful example on " fatigue " in the spec. area of VC. A very interesting task would be to have the same great idea done on other biomarkers like the values measured with fitmate ( FeO2 for example ) but as well the non invasive idea of actually testing the "stress" or the result on the cardiac system with a physio flow. Here just some inside values from the fastest "white" male marathon runner in Beijing. Body temperature immediately after the run 41.5 degrees and immediately hematuria during the drug testing as a result of very hard overload on the blood system as well with different theories and ideas what and why this may happened. He was actually 35 sec of the bronce medal and had the fastest second half in the race. We will try to get a cardiac reaction tested before and after a long 12- 14 hours effort and than as well try to follow up over some days to see possible returns. Thanks Kevin beautiful data simple to do but very effective as it can be used anywhere and with very little effort to test and money to invest. | ||
| Duncan Junior Member Username: Duncan Post Number: 7 Registered: 06-2006 |
Hello Kevin, So... what causes this reduction? Is it just the 'tightness' of the inspriration/expiration muscles restricting their movement? Can you monitor this with SpO2 as well? Tired/recovering lungs will pull more O2 out of blood than normal, lower resting SpO2? Cheers, Duncan | ||
| Kevin New member Username: Kevin Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hi Duncan, Good to hear from you. Hope all is well. Good questions. The athlete reported that both the inspiration and expiration muscles were affected. There were noticeable limitations to fully fill the lungs as well as with the end of exhalation. The final 1-2secs of both inspiration/expiration efforts were difficult. Regular tidal volume (TV) did not present as a problem. The sensation was similar to a volitional type fatigue. As for O2 sats...great thought but unfortunately it was not monitored this time so I don't know for sure what we would have found. I will try the idea in the near future and see what is found. It would have been interesting to see resting sat values and how they might change. Respiratory endurance training is an important component of an athletes training plan. On a side note. I spoke with a local athlete who 4-5 days after the IMC race was feeling recovered and was already on his bike. They said they felt great but noticed that they could not generate the same power as prior to the event. Perhaps the ECGM helps us to understand that the legs felt recovered but the weak link for the moment is the respiratory and/or cardiac system when under load. Cheers Kevin | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 108 Registered: 04-2006 |
Duncan, I would expect that the resting O2 sats would likely be unchanged even after an Ironman distance race, and respiratory "fatigue". It may actually be that "tired/recovering lungs" pull out less O2 from the inhaled air as a result of a drop in muscle recruitment to protect the other organs, following the CGM model. It would be interesting to see what happens to different athletes in the weeks following Ironman. I know Juerg was going to collect some Physioflow data on some athletes who raced at Iornman Canada, but don't kniow if he had time to collect the information. We may try to do a small cohort of pre/post 1/2 Ironman VO2 data this week, on a young athlete, and an experienced athlete to see how their races affect results. Am collecting data on Wednesday evening, and will post results again after this week-end's race. | ||
| Mikebikes Member Username: Mikebikes Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2007 |
Hello All, I have an interesting observation on breathing rates and Heart rate responses/power responses after a ultra event. I completed a 24 hour solo mountain bike race last weekend. My heart rates during the race were in the 160-170 range most of the time ( balance point is around 170 currently). The days following the race were interesting. I rode Tuesday for 1.5 hrs and had good leg feel but slow HR response. My breath would pick up as I entered into the 150-155 Hr range on tuesday. Pe was actually pretty low for most of the ride. I rode again on Thursday and again my heart rate was slow to respond to any intensity. My legs felt good but lacked power. My breath picked up once in the 165 rnage and was work to get it there. Sunday - I rode to test myself to see how rested and measure for any other improvements. I tried to test inside but just was not feeling it. I was able to keep my HR at the 183-185 range and power at the 345-355 range but only for short periods. So I stopped the indoor test. I knew then that I was not totally recovered but decided to take it outside on a few hills and test my ten minute power and heart rate. I did a test on a hill that I have measured by a telephone pole at the bottom of the hill and a telephone pole at the top. Two months ago, I rode this hill - 1.94 miles/about 8-12 % grade- as fast as I could in approx 11 minutes. Sunday I rode the hill in 9:42 sec. average power was 337. That was up from 324 for a ten min interval previously recorded earlier in the year. BUT my heart rate ave was only 172. My threshold HR is 183. As I return to riding yesterday with longer miles, my Heart rate completely responded to all intervals but still a little fatigues overall from the race especailly mechanically. I only have HR and breath as feedback but knew that my respiratory system was fatigued from the race. I also find it interesting how long it takes to recovery your respiratory system and the importance of being fully recovered to produce more potential for sustained power. Your thoughts are welcome. Cheers. Mike | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 729 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo all out there. Yes we collect for the moment many interesting informations with our toys, and as so often are many times surprised about the measured outcome compared with the theoretical answer we would give or used in the past. All this is as so often an eye ( and brain ) opener , as to be much more careful with theoretical predictions on what may or may not be expected. We tested informations after long workouts , as well with different respiration challenges and now have to work through all of that to see potential trends. After that we have to repeat and repeat again and see, whether some trends really can hold on the ideas they suggest , or if many of the trends are randomly at that particular day under this specific conditions. We start to exchange some of the clearer trends with the NOC centers and we are setting up some weekends and possible camps for coaches to work on all the toys. There are camps planned in Spain for the fall as well as for the spring and in California Joshua Tree, as well as in Quesnel. During this camp we will be able to collect larger numbers of info ( for sure if we go back to europe ) and if not we have some people there , who will do the data collection and testing for us. One of the biggest data collection we have for the moment is the Icehockey NOC with Brian Kozak , where we have for the moment daily info and data collection on reactions after games and workouts.As well some interesting feedback form top levels like you see in that picture. NHL Philadelphia Flyer top star during his workout with Brian Kozak.  For the careful observer , watch the bike . | ||
| Holman325 Member Username: Holman325 Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2009 |
Any further data or information from Brian with Mike Richards, or the the Quesnel Millionaires team etc...?? How about anything from Speedskating Canada or anyother sports with preparations for Vancouver? Thanks juerg |