| Author | Message | ||
     Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2269 Registered: 04-2006 |
I like to share this on the horse Forum, as it has perhaps more in common , than we think. 1. Horses have this spleen dumping as the possibility to increase suddenly the amount of available blood and therefor the ability to move more O2. There seems to be many questions regarding the timing of this event . Is it hormonal ( adrenalin ) and or is it perhaps as well feedback information on pO2 situation in vital organs. Now here the blood distribution of a human body under rest and under high performance.  Now here a first time done full test with physio Flow and PorteMon on humans live info non invasive. You can see teh red line , which is O2 Hb ( oxygen on the hemoglobin in the muscle cell. As you can see form zero to 300 watt there is initially an increase in available O2 Hb and than a steady drop due to use of O2 as well as increased muscle tension. The test was done by putting an NIRS sensor on the front of the quadriceps with a tape and than transmit the info wireless to a laptop with distance opportunity of up to 1000 m free field . Here to enjoy and think , whether teh spleen dumping could be detected very similar .  For more info follow the thread FaCT testing or PorteMon in teh human Forum section. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 129 Registered: 07-2008 |
Juerg, What is p02? Yes for horses it is the awareness of and the timing of dumping their spleens. Although horses and humans are remarkably similar horse's spleen capacity and function could play a greater role in 800 to 1500 meter horse race performances. For now your confirmation please: When we dump the horse's spleen sometime before the race will we get a load of oxygeneted blood (30%)? As you point out how and how much is not so much the issue as is the timing of the dump. J P.S. Thank you Jureg for posting your insights in Horse Racing and Training. Sometimes what you write is so far over my head that you piss me off. That is not your problem it's mine...I'll try to catch up. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2272 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks Joe, First short correction. I have no insight in horse training nor racing but fun to learn from horse trainers. pO2 is the pressure of Oxygen in a tissue or in the air. . So in altitude the pO2 is lower as a simple example. If we breath deeper or less deep or use specific respiratory techniques some believe that we can change pO2 pressure. p O2 is important as O2 moves mostly over pressure difference. Example. In the lungs your pO2 is higher, than in the blood vessels , where O2 has to be moved to so O2 moves from the lungs to the red blood cells. p CO2 is higher in the blood vessels by the lungs an lower in the lungs so CO2 moves out to the lungs from the blood. So the question would be: is pO2 a trigger for spleen dumping. r again is it more hormonal triggered ( Adrenaline) Question of spleen dumping and how much 5 is a question to be answered from horse people. How much blood in a horse and how much blood in a spleen ? Is there a tool or research, who know the volume circulating in the cell under rest and under race intensity.? We have as well very little information in humans about the distribution during real activity but as you can see lot's of ideas and theories. The NIRS may or may not help us to shed some more information to this interesting question. When you look at the above NIRS print you can see, that there is immediately after the end of the performance test and incredible fast and | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 38 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Juerg, Here is an interesting paragraph from the book Equine Exercise Physiology. Another factor that must be considered in the calculation of total BV in the horse is the splenic reserve volume. The horse is somewhat unique compared to most other mammalian species in that the spleen is a very capacious and capricious organ, storing between 6 and 12 L or red cell-rich blood at rest. Plenic blood typicaly has a hematocrit of 65-75%. Thus studies of total BV become somewhat problematic because measurement of the total circulating BV requires an accounting for the splenic reserve volume, a measurement that requires mobilization of the splenic red cell reserve. Most studies to date have utilized exercise or infusion of epinephrine (adrenaline) or an ox-adrenergic agonist drug to cause splenic contraction, with a blood sample obtained for the measurement of hematocrit after the accommodation and the mixing of the extra volume of blood. Complete mixing takes only 1-2 min; however, in many studies, the hematocrit used to calculate BV and RCV was taken at the end of or after an incremental exercise test. While this is an accepted way to cause splenic contration and a viable way to estimate the contribution of the splinic reserve to the total circulationg blood volume, the resulting hematocrit values are skewed upward by the cynamic fluid shifts caused by the changes in flow and hydrostatic pressure induced by the exercise or pharmaceutical manipulation. Therfore, the hematocrit used to calculate total BV would reflect both the contribution of splenic reserve mobilitization and reductions in plasma volume and would be an overestimation of total blood volume. this is essentially an offset error and because acute reductions in PV caused by exercise-induced fluid shifts are linked to exercise intensity, the fluid shifts that lead to this overestimation only become a problem if a study's experimental design uses different exercise intensities to measure the hematocrits used in comparisons between treament groups or comparisons made before and after training. For example,if one calculates BV using a hematocrit obtained at the 10 m/s step of a treadmill test, it will yield a different result than the value calculated using the hematocrit collected at the 11 or 12 m/s step of an incremental treadmill test. Hope this sheds some more light on the subject.} | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 132 Registered: 07-2008 |
LeLe Maybe more light indeed maybe. One point of your paragraph indicates the full effect of a spleen dump may require 60 to 100 seconds. I know how to make that happen in standardbred how can it be done for t-bred races? So for sure then different results will be expected for this and also a step or an LBP test depending on the activity i.e. treadmill versus a track. In the Maine Project we may get some real world comparisons also by adding a resistance cart. Is it really important that we know much about hematocrit for our horse's to win more money? JoJo | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 39 Registered: 07-2008 |
JoJo Persson and many others have shown that there is a strong relationship between red blood cell volume and aerobic performance in the horse. Studies have demonstrated that the spleen contracts very rapidly with both the extruded volume and cells accommodated and mixed with the central circulation within the first 1-1.5 min of exercise. I think it is important to know how and when to dump the spleen before a race in order for the hematocrit to be fully functional and mixed completely into the circulation for use during the race, not after the race is over. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2307 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here just a view from the human side and it may be different in horses. The hematocrit is really not that important. It is only important to not fail a "preventative" drug test. You can have a very high hematocrit as a human but less red blood cells , than another with a lower hematocrit but more red blood cells. The trick here would be the famous plasma expansion. Here a picture to explain it .  So it is easy to understand, that when you reduce the plasma the hematocrit will go up despite teh same amount of red blood cells. This is the problem with athletes going to important races in altitude. and if they are already close to 50 % and they dehydrate in altitude they may just fall above 50 % and can't race. The second part , which may be different in human to horses is teh fact , that in races up to 800 m or 2 min. duration the red blood cell situation seem to be not that important compared with aerobic workouts like 5ooo m and up. Remember that we make a difference between aerobic as now O2 dependent versus O2 independent ( old term O2 independent ) What we see in the NIRS now is really , that there is no anaerobic situation in any case, just a lower O2 Hb situation. Now in races with this high intensity like middle distance (800 ) the muscle tension is so high, that there is at least and venous type if not even an arterial type of a blood occlusion. Meaning , that in this events the ATP production is mainly dependent on the O2 supply or stroage in teh muscle cell plus depending on the proper "warm up situation to try to get the right energy production line going. Here what I mean with the blood flow.  | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2308 Registered: 04-2006 |
Now if we move that in a real world test than you can see here a workout with a human , where we did 4 short intense work intervals and what you see is the drop in O2 Hb and an in increase in HHb. The device is just simply fixed on the skin and it sends the signal 500 - 1000 m to the lap top or you can do it in a standalone option.  here the device is about 2by 3 inch. here a pic.  You can see after the interval an overshoot in Hb ( minimal "spleen dumping smile ) and you can see in the second phase a very nice increase in O2Hb done by a respiratory manipulation and a double as long workout interval with the same intensity due to the prepared higher O2 Hb ( speculation and has to be confirmed over the next few month) This are the first test in this practical outline ever made in the world with this combinations. If you go on the human Forum you can see as well all the cardiac hemodynamic reactions and respiratory reactions during this workout .All is done wireless now and with teh options of a standalone acquisition. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 133 Registered: 07-2008 |
Leonie, So we perceive that once a particular level of exercise begins and the heart rate gets to a particular bpm the spleen opens and dumps at least 30% of the horse's entire blood volume into the system and this blood is highly oxygenated. It's been stored to give the horse that added power to quickly get away from the prey? But still the demand for high speed does not use the oxygen dependent muscle fibers (muscles fueled by oxygen) it uses the oxygen independent fibers (muscles fueled by Glycogen?) There seems then to be a contradiction and of course we do not yet know for sure at what bpm the spleen dumps (maybe different for each horse) nor do we know how long that load of oxygenated blood lasts in the system before it recirculates back to the lungs for a new charge of oxtgen. Juerg You said, "The hematocrit is really not that important. It is only important to not fail a "preventative" drug test." That's funny Juerg, but too often sad and true. In horse racing it's called "testing positive". For you sir just mostly more questions but need to get back to you later on those. But all this conversation may lead us closer to two answers, 1. When does the spleen dump? and 2. How long does the effect/value last? | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2008 |
Would that splenic blood supply still be 'highly oxygenated' if the spleen had NOT been dumped for the past 3 weeks? | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2310 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here some interesting info from the human side again. There is something like and "artificial" spleen dumping in humans. Rumors like the first used blood doping where raised at the time of Lasse Viren. You take in very simple steps. An athlete up to high altitude ( today in an altitude room ) and than you wait for the body to produce over the EPO more red blood cells. Transportation system of O2. Once you have more of them . Checking by hematocrit , you take the blood and save it and than later refuel it back into the system so you have a much higher number of red blood cells. You had to watch that the hematocrit would not go to high , as it was more work on the heart and some risks involved. First cases of too high hematocrit date nicely back to the 1968 Mexico games mainly in rowing ( Goepf Kotman ) After this information they understood that the Hct has to be controlled by adding plasma expansion to it so still lots of red blood cells but nicely "liquid" and much easier for the heart to pump.This days technique are much more controlled and much more sophisticated. The question is : The blood in the spleen is just simply rich of Hb but not automatically of O2 Hb. The blood from the spleen , where the red blood cells are stored has first to be oxygenated and therefor has to move through the lungs first before it can be used in the O2 dependent energy production. The key question is, whether the more blood cells and more O2 loaded blood cells have a direct influence on the intracellular O2 content as well. If not than the spleen dumping has an effect on longer runs after about 1- 2 minutes, as the horse and or the human can sustain that long high speed without O2 demand but to go longer they need than a proper blood flow to the working muscles to keep O2 dependent ATP production upright and to refuel ATP deficit. This makes the timing of spleen dumping very very important to actually have a benefit. In humans ( since the time of Dr. Eric Bannister there is the question of adding O2 short before a middle distance race to try to "overfuel" O2 ( still lot's of discussion on that one. Another idea is dropping pCO2 short before a short race to start in a nearly alcalose state for respiration and allow a better acceptance of CO2 as we start on a lower start level. See the PorteMon graph second 400 watt load with a manipulated lower pCO2 situation. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2311 Registered: 04-2006 |
"The Spleen The spleen is situated near the stomach. It has a rich blood supply and acts as a reservoir of red blood cells. When there is a sudden loss of blood, as happens when a hemorrhage occurs, the spleen contracts to release large numbers of red blood cells into the circulation. The spleen also destroys old red cells and makes new lymphocytes but it is not an essential organ because its removal in adult life seems to cause few problems. In the foetus, the spleen makes both red and white cells." out of : http://www.equinekingdom.com/data/educat ion/horse_anatomy/circulation_system.htm l | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 344 Registered: 04-2006 |
To add to the pre-race hypocapnea idea. We have seen a very strong correlation with hypocapnea (using a spiro-tiger) and time to fatigue for double-poling sprint xc skiers. Small group, but very strong results when attempted at Sovereign Lake a few weeks back. I would agree with Juerg that the large pool of Hb in the spleen in NOT oxygenated, and we should begin to consider the idea of managing the spleen dumping much earlier before the race, to allow time for full oxygenation prior to the start. Adding a period of controlled hyperventilation (pre-race hypocapnea situation) is easy in humans, and it would be fun to play with the idea in horses, to see if we can create the same ability to sustain exercise at high intensity as we have done in humans. | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2008 |
There is one big time TB trainer named Rick Dutrow who has at times breezed his racing stock at 6am the morning of a 5pm race a quarter mile distance in about 28 seconds time. He may have stumbled upon the solution, unbeknownst to himself, of course. | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 345 Registered: 04-2006 |
12 hours might be a bit too far in advance, but we don't really know. Once we can collect some Portemon data on horses, we may have a way to see how close to race start is the most efficient. I would presume that if breezed in the morning, the horse would sequester the HB again in the spleen by the evening, though I am sure this has never been studied. And even if it does sequester through the day, it might be easier to mobilize it the second time that day. We certainly have evidence to suggest that twice a day workouts in humans have a profound effect on the different systems. We are watching our own results very carefully after beginning a new program of early morning training, and repeated effort again in the afternoon, to see if we can find some trends in responses. Such is the life of a wanna-be competitive athlete with a three-year old and a job. Early mornings and late evenings are the only quiet time for training and research. | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 40 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi All, I have been doing interval training with race horses since in the 80's and always found that the second interval was always stronger than the first. I have utillized a spleen dumping blow-out before a race with my thoroughbreds for years. I will allow them to breeze between 1/8th to 1/4 mile before going into the gates with terrific results. From what I know about the spleen is that the blood is not oxynated and dumps at a heart rate over 200 bpm., there for the blow out. While the horses walk to the gates after the blowout, they are oxegenating the cells. Joe, it takes oxegen to burn carbohydrates or glycogen also. Leonie | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2312 Registered: 04-2006 |
Interesting observation and it is not different with humans in an interval workout. There are different reasons in humans , why the second or third workout in an interval is easier and better to do ( none of the reasons here would be spleen dumping ) Reasons like neuronal ideas, intramuscular coordination inter muscular coordination , cardiac hemodynamic and simply overloading the system once to fire up many possible ( survival reactions ) So in humans the result is not based on spleen dumping at all. Question therefor what is going on in horses in this section. It really opens the question : How much is done in the field of research in thatis spleen dumping and how much is based on I think or I believe, rather than actual knowing ? Last but not least , there is some way of burning glycogen without oxygen as well. The whole process of O2 independent ATP production which gives the idea of lactate production. Once we go into intensities , where glycogen is used O2 independent that's where we start to work with lactate as a bio marker. This is typically in distance of 400 and 800 m in human runner. The O2 dependent glucose use is starting upwards of 800 m to be of more interested and or in interval workouts with complete recovery to refuel the ATP deficit in humans. | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 348 Registered: 04-2006 |
I don't think there is a question as to whether the stored pool of HB would benefit the horse, the only question remains how long before the start is required to mobilize the HB and oxygenate it. The oxygenation shold happen very quickly, but there is no research that shows how long it takes to fully contract the spleen, nor the lowest intensity required to perform the task. If we can find a way to allow for spleen dumping at HR=180, we will save some of the stored glycogen for the race, rather than taking HR to 200. This is where the portemon, bioharness and other equipment can help by giving us biomarkers that might demonstrate the true intensity for each horse that spleen dumping occurs. Also, I think Leonnie meant to say that oxygen is required for carbohydrate metabolism (glycogen is a storage form of glucose in the body, and is a carbohydrate), though this is not EXACTLY true...though oxygen is required to keep the cell alive and functioning, oxygen is not required for oxygen dependent metabolism (anaerobic), which is the breakdown of glucose in the cytosol to produce small amounts of energy, very rapidly. As compared to oxygen dependent metabolism (aerobic) which involves the same first steps of glycolysis as the one mentioned above, plus the additional steps of the Krebs' Cycle and Electron Transport Chain to produce much more energy at a relatively slower rate. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 134 Registered: 07-2008 |
Wow! Scott, Allison and Gaylord, lets sort through this stuff and figure out how we'll get more questions answered in "Our Maine Project". | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 41 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Y'All, Thanks for clarifying, Andrew. I am looking at using the PortaMon with horses. A problem might be is where to put he unit so we can receive enough light. Placement of the unit to get the readings we need. They may also have to consider changing the power outputs or probe distances of their system to fit our application. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 137 Registered: 07-2008 |
If anyone can figure how to use the PortoMon with horses, Leonie can. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2349 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here an inside view in O2 trends during a 1 hour workout.  What we look as well is , how the O2 trend has or is effecting the cardiac information. Interesting is again the initial drop in O2 as a typical sign of O2 independent energy production in humans, no matter how hard you start from zero motion. But than a steady increase and we used some info from FaCT tests to see, whether the ideas we got there are true . Follow for more details the human threads if you are interested. Here just to round up the picture the same 1 hour workout from hemodynamic info point of view.  This was done of line ( standalone) | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hey Juerg, What is the name of the human threads that has to do with the oxygen information? What do you thing about Hypoxia training? Leonie | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2353 Registered: 04-2006 |
Leonnie . There are two threads . One is PorteMon , the other is FaCT test but you can as well go on the search option and type in a key word you look for and it will show you all the infos where your keyword is included. Hypoxia is a very interesting topic and again you can go under Spiro Tiger and see. As well as in horse coaching as there is a Hypoxia system for horses out there. I don';t think it is the way to go in a horse as we already have the spleen dumping and in races with times around 2 min Hypoxia did not worked in humans at all. See 1986 Olympic records and world records as well somewhere in our Forum. The way to try a new field before a race would be rather Hyperoxia as done by a top runner ( Eric Bannister before his legendary sub 4 mile world record and check Tim Noakes ideas on hyperoxia |