| Author | Message | ||
     Kuifje New member Username: Kuifje Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2009 |
Hello all I have only just discovered this forum. Here is my query and I hope some of you experts can shed some light on this. Last December my resting lactate levels were 2.4 from an earlobe blood sample, a few samples confirmed this. I had no illness. What could this mean, or was it simply an error. It was A lactate Pro that was being used. 30 minutes before this test i did 1 60second windgate test, could this somehow have affected my resting levels ? I consumed sodium Bicarbonate an hour before the test, Could a poor diet cause raised lactate levels Unfortunately this was my first ever test and I have not had another test done since so i can't compare results with other tests. Any ideas? | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 265 Registered: 04-2006 |
Welcome to the forum... Resting lactate levels are of absolutely no value. Here is why...lactate is being produced and consumed constantly in the human body. The levels will rise within minutes of ingesting a high carbohydrate meal, and fall quickly if you then go for even a short walk. We have demonstrated this on numerous occasions at our training camps, by taking resting lactate values before breakfast (average numbers from our "voumteers" between 0.8 and 1.4), and then repeat the test after a healthy breakfsat (numbers have ranged from 1.4 to the highest I have seen at 8.5). We have hypothesized that those athletes who have trained a depleted their glycogen stores, and not refueled appropriately at the dinner sitting, have higher rises in post-prandial lactate values in the morning. Lactate is used as a shuttle between the GI tract and the liver, which could explain the higher values we have seen in the "harder" working athletes. Our goal at the camp is often to control the intensity in training, and work on refueling to allow lactate levels to remain low after breakfast. Not always possible, but a fun exercise none the less. If the lab that did your resting lactate values is interested, perhaps you can challenge them to repeat the same test, and give an explanation of your changing values before and after refueling. I hope that helps. Andrew www.fact-education.com | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1771 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here an add on to the question of the "high resting lactate." If you did 30 min before a wingate test and you did that all out you may have had a very high lactate concentration in your system. So 30 min later with doing nothing in between you may easy still be on 2.5 mmol / lactate. Check in the Rowing test thread, as there are some very nice graphs n lactate dynamics after all out runs over 300 and 600 m. and you can see that in many cases the lactate levels after 30 min was still very high. We are testing this week some ideas, as we try to review some training ideas for the 2012 olympics with some athletes. A simple summary of the testing is: High intensity "interval" for a few reps and in the rest period we do : Group a ) nothing Group b ) biking just below LBP Group c ) biking on STF/FTF intensity Group d ) Spiro tiger use in the rest period. We like to see: What "recovery" idea will produce the most possible repetition in the work out and whether it is smart to "get ride" of lactate or try to keep it high but get ride of H+ We will show the results on here as soon we have some potential trends. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1772 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here short an addition. On the graph you can see , that in each single case, where the lactate after the 300 or 600 m run was above 10 mm0/l the 30 min lactate values where above 2.5 mmol. There is a rule of thumb ( not always working well. If you do nothing after an all out test like a Wingate you will have a calculation of 50 % reduction or "half value time" of app. 15 min Example: Max tested lactate 12.0 , so 15 min late 6.0 and 15 min later 3.o. So in your case it would be interesting to have your max lactate from the wingate test and see how this very old rule of thumb would apply . Another factor , which can influence resting lactates is muscle injury. We id in the late 1980 ( 1986 ) in preparation for Calgary some tests with eccentric running ( downhill ) and potential influence on resting lactate. As longer and harder the athletes would run down , as higher the resting lactate the next morning even before breakfast and than really high after breakfast. Two potential reasons. 1. Eccentric running needs much more glucose even with a relative low heart rate due to the lower recruitment of muscle units . The eccentric work will create some " muscle damage" mainly in the so called serial and parallel elastic elements in the muscle, which may have created this higher resting lactate levels. We had at that time no clue why. Brooks an Gladdens lactate paradigm for the next millennium suggest an increase in lactate after muscle damage as a part of the "healing " process. Gladden : " Surprisingly. Lactate is likely a key player in wound healing through its effect on down-regulation of ADP-ribosylation. In some cases of injury and sepsis, lactate accumulation may relate not to an O2 limitation, but to an epinephrine surge and a resulting stimulation of the Na+- K +- ATPase pump fueled largely by a functionally- linked aerobic glycolysis" So 20 years later a possible explanation. The second reason for the higher resting lactate and even higher resting lactate after the breakfast may be the combination of the idea by Gladden and the explanation by Andrew on the morning lactate situation. A resting morning lactate after breakfast of above 4 is really possible, which just will throw the 4 mmol idea over board and it would be interesting to see, whether the high reading Andrew had in his camp was on an athlete , who did a run with some harder downhill section the day before which could explain the very high values. | ||
| Kuifje New member Username: Kuifje Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2009 |
thanks for the replies, My peak lactate level was around 22mmol but i can't remember if this was after the windgate or the 50watt incremental test that followed 30 minutes after the windgate.The test was for part of a student's final year project into how different types of ergs compared. This test was done on an electromagnetically braked one. Unfortunately I developed tendinitis and could not participate fully in the subsequent tests. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1773 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks for the lactate numbers. 22 is a very high but possible number. If it was taken after your Wingate test , than the number is more unlikely , if it was just after the short test. Lactate after this incredible fast and hard efforts tend to peak much later so very often some centers choose to take lactate immediately after the test , followed by 3,6,9,12,and 15 min after to see the lactate dynamic . As harder and as shorter you go as later you will see a relative peak. Remember, that we never see the real lactate value in teh ear or finger, as the lactate has to move from its origin ( for example leg muscles ) to the place where we take lactate. On the way to that spot lots of lactate will move into other muscles , and is used up as well in the heart and so on , so the 22 mmol is never an absolute value but a sign , that there was an incredible demand of ATP in the working muscles. As teh demand of ATP was very high and the ATP was used very fast , so could the O2 dependent energy production to ATP not hold up with sufficient delivery of ATP. This forced the body to surge for alternative faster ATP production lines and it could find it in the O2 independent glycolysis and the CrP as well as even using ATP directly form the storage with the risk of dropping ATP too low which may trigger any kind of emergency respond. H+ production could be one of the suggestions but as well Na+ and K+ balance disturbance, so that the body got protected of dropping to low on ATP. Rigor mortis is a sign of no ATP left over. Now id we take 22 lactate in your test , where you made 50 watt steps and you reached 22 we can careful assume, that in the Wingate test 30 min prior to the other second test you may had as well a lactate number of15 and up . So if you go back to the 15 min rule of thumb half value time you have 15 min later 6 -7 mmol and another 15 min later 2.5 - 3.5 mool / L . So you 2.5 mmol resting lactate prior to the start of the second test is absolutely possible and very realistic to explain. It as well shows you that 2 and 4 mmol ideas are or where nice starts into the lactate ideas, but can't hold up anymore after all the new in formations we have by now. Thanks so much for your nice input in our crazy Forum. Juerg | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1774 Registered: 04-2006 |
Summary and conclusions We repeated the lactate clamp procedure to explore facets of the Lactate Shuttle Hypothesis. During moderate intensity exercise with lactate appearance and concentration in excess of endogenous production, there was an increase in lactate oxidation and a concomitant decrease in glucose oxidation. Decreased glucose oxidation by exercising muscle resulted in a decreased demand for blood glucose and consequently decreased glucose production to maintain blood glucose homeostasis. With exogenous lactate infusion, lactate incorporation into glucose increased and the contribution of glycogenolysis to glucose production decreased. Finally, lactate infusion into exercising men was not associated with an increase in the sensation of fatigue. Results are consistent with the concept that lactate is a useful carbohydrate source that can spare blood glucose and liver glycogen in times of increased energy demand. This is a conclusion by Brooks et all on lactate shuttle ideas. A very interesting part in their study was teh fact , that respiration can be used to adjust to different reactions ( alkalosis and acidosis ) This could be a direction in our case studies of changes in lactate dynamic due to changes in respiratory patterns. "Therefore, mild alkalosis resulting from sodium lactate infusion was compensated by respiratory adjustments, resulting in increased plasma [HCO3−] with no change in [H+]." | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 266 Registered: 04-2006 |
ust to answer Juerg's question about the lactate value of 8.5 at "rest". Yes, this value was done on an athlete who had done a long ride, and then decided to do some functional running, with lots of downhill (J.Tree across the park, where he was shuttled home afterwards). He was pushing his limits to see how he recovered, and it was clear he could recover his cardiovascualr system well, but his metabolic system was still a mess 12 hours later. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1784 Registered: 04-2006 |
This is an add on for Kui's question n resting lactate. This study shows the half value times and may confirm to a certain extend the "resting " lactate we had in this question after a 90 sec. Wingate and than the resting lactate at a higher level than expected. The other interesting question is now: As lactate moves from a "waste product" and the "reason for fatigue " to a very nicely usable metabolic product and bio marker, we may see many good studies suddenly be under more critical questions on the conclusion and the value of the study. Here the summary of this study : Comparative study of lactate removal in short term massage of extremities, active recovery and a passive recovery period after supra-maximal exercise sessions.Gupta S, Goswami A, Sadhukhan AK, Mathur DN. Faculty of Sports Sciences, Sports Authority of India, Netaji Subhas National Institute of Sports, Patiala, India. This investigation highlights the comparison of blood lactate removal during the period of recovery in which the subjects were required to sit down as a passive rest period, followed by active recovery at 30% VO(2)max and short term body massage, as the three modes of recovery used. Ten male athletes participated in the study. Exercise was performed on a bicycle ergo-meter with loads at 150% VO(2)max, each session lasting 1 min, inter-spaced with 15 sec rest periods, until exhaustion. Blood lactate concentration was recorded at recovery periods of 0,3, 5, 10, 20, 30, and 40 min, while VO(2), VCO(2) and heart rate were recorded every 30 sec for 30 min. The highest mean lactate value was found after 3 min of recovery irrespective of the type of modality applied. Significantly lower half life of lactate was observed during active recovery (15.7 +/- 2.5 min) period, while short term massage as a means of recovery required 21.8 +/- 3.5 min and did not show any significant difference from a passive type of sitting recovery period of 21.5 +/- 2.8 min. Analysis of lactate values indicated no remarkable difference between massage and a passive type of sitting recovery period. It was observed that in short term massage recovery, more oxygen was consumed as compared to a passive type of sitting recovery. It is concluded from the study that the short term body massage is ineffective in enhancing the lactate removal and that an active type of recovery is the best modality for enhancing lactate removal after exercise." Now the question here has to be asked: Do we really like to "enhance " lactate removal after exercising and or in between shifts of performance. 1. If lactate is a very efficient energy source it would be wasteful to just burn it off in between events on the same day and or after a race, as it may help to recover faster, if we would take the lactate to refuel liver storage, and potentially even muscle storage. 2. If the lactate has a buffer capacity ( Roberg ) in taking H + from the "overloaded" cell , than it may be of some value to try to reduce the H+ overload and by removing lactate we may move more H + out of the cell. But with the cost of loosing a very efficient energy source. 3. This brings us back to the question of : Respiratory acidosis and metabolic acidosis we discussed already many times. So our crazy idea is to see, whether there are ways of reducing H+ but in the same time saving lactate as an energy source. What we try for the moment is the following idea: 60 sec all out interval with 60 sec rest. Why 60 seconds ? no clue possibly because it is easy to control the intervals. We test 3 different options. 1. 60 sec all out and 60 sec rest in standing and than go again. 2. 60 sec same as above speed and during the 60 sec rest we jog easy or bike easy by 25 % of the performance intensity. Why 25 % ? no clue just a nice good to adjust intensity. 3. Same 60 sec all out followed in the 60 sec rest with a hypocapnic intervention. Preliminary test we did show some trends. in 2 of the above intervals the repetitions where possible 3 - 4 x before failure. In one of the above 5 - 8 reps. We will do this idea now on a set of different people and see, whether there is a trend or whether it was just a fluke. Will keep you updated as soon we see some real trends and not just 2 case studies. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1785 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here is a similar study and read critically and you may see some contradiction at the beginning, as well as at the end. http://tkdtutor.com/11Training/LacticAci d/LacticAcid02.htm | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1786 Registered: 04-2006 |
And here another study. You can see, what we try to asses. In most of the studies I was reading over the last 4 weeks the methods and the conclusions where always based on the same idea. a) If lactate removal is faster, than the recovery is better. If HR drops faster than the recovery is better. Here a critical question again: If lactate is an energy source than should we really try to remove it as fast as possible ? If H+ is or may be the culprit than the goal should be to remove H+ and not lactate. If HR drops fast , does that really is a good indicator of recovery. If we look from a cardiac hemodynamic point than HR is a very small part of an overall team working on our behalf for performance and possibly as well for recovery. We see , that some people we tested with the Physio Flow drop after a performance the HR very fast , but keep for a long time a relative high EDV and therefor often a high SV. Other people keep a relative high HR for a long time , but you see a very fast drop in EDV and SV. Now in the case where EDV and SV are high we see a much lower SVR. in the case where HR stays high but SV dropes we see a very fast increase in SVR. ( potentially to maintain a decent blood pressure ) Now in some cases we see a fast increase in LVET and in other case we don't see that. This opens a set of questions on the value of assessing only heart rate in the recovery phase of a VO2 max test. In the FaCT CLR testing now we keep the VO2 ( Fit Mate ) as well the Physio flow on during the whole second part of the test, where we search for LBP and it is very interesting to see, which system is "recovering " back to the same values as in the first part step test and what system is still of this performance. When we than compare the performance line with the "recovery " line on the soft ware we may see a very fast return of the green line to the performance line which we thought indicated a good recovery . It seems it only indicates a fast return of the HR to the same values as in the step test. But we can see in some cases, that the HR is equal in the performance line and recovery line, the cardiac out but is very different, as CO = HR x SV only has one part equal which is the HR but the stroke volume can be very different. So the question is: Is that a sign of a good or bad recovery. One idea is to do a set of intervals and see in people where the HR is fast back to the lower end compared with people , where this is not the case, whether there is a difference in the following up repetitions. Again lot's of open questions now more than ever, as we now can see with the physio flow , that many conclusions and fixed ideas may not be that fixed anymore. As we will have more and more people using the Physio flow we will have more and more questions and very interesting discussions coming up. Titre du document / Document title Effect of recovery interventions on lactate removal and subsequent performance Auteur(s) / Author(s) MONEDERO J. (1) ; DONNE B. (1) ; Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s) (1) Department of Physiology, Trinity College Dublin, Dublin, IRLANDE Résumé / Abstract The recovery process in sport plays an essential role in determining subsequent athletic performance. This study investigated the effectiveness of different recovery interventions after maximal exercise. Eighteen trained male cyclists initially undertook an incremental test to determine maximal oxygen consumption. The four recovery interventions tested were: passive, active (50% maximal oxygen uptake). massage, and combined (involving active and massage components). All test sessions were separated by 2 to 3 days. During intervention trials subjects performed two simulated 5 km maximal effort cycling tests (T1 and T,) separated by a 20 min recovery. Performance time for the tests (t1, t2); blood lactate (BLa) during T1, T2, and every 3 min during recovery; and heart rate (HR) during the recovery intervention and T2 were recorded. Combined recovery was found to be better than passive (P < 0.01) and either active or massage (P < 0.05) in maintenance of performance time during T2, Active recovery was the most effective intervention for removing BLa at minutes 9 and 12, BLa removal during combined recovery was significantly better than passive at minute 3, and significantly better than passive, active, and massage at minute 15. In conclusion, combined recovery was the most efficient intervention for maintaining maximal performance time during T2, and active recovery was the best intervention for removing BLa" | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1787 Registered: 04-2006 |
Recovery and some nice thoughts : Stretching Efficacy of Stretching: – There are no studies to date that have investigated the effect of stretching between exercise sessions on performance during post-recovery exercise – Majority of research on pre-exercise stretching up to 60 minutes prior to performance has shown a negative effect on explosive power (Shrier, 2004 & Nelson et al, 2005) – Therefore, stretching in the last 60 minutes of a recovery period before explosive training may be inappropriate (Barnett, 2006) – There are no identified mechanisms to date by which stretching may improve the recovery process (Bobbert et al, 1996) – There is no apparent short-or long-term benefit from stretching as a recovery modality (Barnett, 2006) Future Directions Future Directions and Conclusions: – Most studies have focussed on different recovery modalities on lactate removal of untrained individuals with DOMS – The relevance of this to recreational/elite athletes has yet to be shown – Blood lactate levels return baseline with rest alone in a time-shorter than is common between training sessions – Massage, active recovery, contrast temperature water immersion and stretching do not appear to be advantageous – The efficacy of compression garments requires further scientific enquiry | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1788 Registered: 04-2006 |
---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- The effect of active recovery, massage and passive recovery on blood lactate concentration and swimming performance J. Gowans & A. Weston* School of Physiotherapy & School of Exercise and Sport Science, University of Sydney, Australia ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Manual massage is routinely recommended and currently used in the preparation for exercise, recovering from exercise and as a method of enhancing performance. Many proponents state that massage augments lactate removal. These assumptions were tested by examining the effects of active recovery (A), massage (M) and passive recovery (P) on blood lactate and swimming performance. Swimming time, blood lactate (post warm up, 3 & 13 mins post both swims; YSI lactate analyser), heart rate and rate of perceived exertion (RPE) (post warm up, immediately & 3 mins post swims) were used to assess the performance. Twelve well trained, competitive swimmers participated in the study. Subjects swam one 200 m at a pace standardised to 90% of their current personal best, were subjected to one of the three 10 min recovery modes, then swam a 200 m maximal effort. Each subject completed all three recovery modalities on three separate occasions in a randomised order, balanced Latin square design. Group means were compared using analysis of variance and post-hoc testing. There was no significant difference between the mean times of the first swim (mean ± S.D) A: 147.0 ± 18.7; M: 146.4 ± 18.9; P: 147.0 ± 18.9 secs. The results indicate that active recovery resulted in a significantly greater blood lactate removal (75.0% decrease from post swim to post recovery intervention, p<0.05) when compared to massage (44.1% decrease) or passive recovery (56.4% decrease) which were not significantly different from each other. No significant difference was apparent in the subsequent maximal bout swim time, although there was a trend toward a faster mean swim time after an active recovery A: 142.6 ± 19.1; M: 143.1 ± 19.1; P: 144.5 ± 19.0. No differences in HR or RPE were apparent. The preliminary results of this study clearly indicate that a 10 min massage has no beneficial effect with respect to lactate removal. Furthermore, the results indicate that a low intensity active recovery or "swim down" is recommended for optimal lactate removal" You can see the wording as: a small trend after the active recovery intervention. So lactate was removed better in most of the studies with active recovery. If lactate is a good energy source the body will take lactate to keep moving , as it is much faster and easier and can move through the cell membran without hormonal intervention ( Insulin as required for glucose) so no wonder the body takes lactate first. By doing this we loose energy but we may take a bit H+ out. So you see the idea of removing H+ but keeping lactate ? |