| Author | Message | ||
     Marcel New member Username: Marcel Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2010 |
I hope it is ok to open a new thread, some questions I can’t find in the forum or need clarification. I am a full time athlete and compete in Winter Biathlon on the World Cup. This winter I started using Powerlung for a period of 6 weeks and although I did not notice anything in race performance I did notice the difference when finishing the races, I would as normal collapse into my sorry pile and just gasp for air, (instead of before Powerlung coughing my lungs out and gasping for air for 5 to 10 minutes after the finish). I assume this gasping is a reaction of fast and shallow breathing in the race and suddenly I am relaxed and can take deeper breaths something that could be improved using SpiroTiger. I have now started using SpiroTiger which will probably give me similar and added results. Here are the first of many more questions regarding the use of SpiroTiger. 1. In the menu is a firmware update path, when “no” is said to update, a window with, 1/3 and a default value of 33% comes up. What are these values and does changing the percentage manipulate anything? 2. Using SpiroTiger as part of ones normal training programme. When we do long sessions or intervals and are tired we would then do ski technique work or very short sprints, as we would be tired in a race but still need to keep our technique going or suddenly change pace. We would mix our shooting training with a circuit session and be more fatigued than in a race. Would you say that in the same way doing SpiroTiger directly after a very hard sessions has a better training effect (overload and supercompensation), due to ones body and respitory system being fatigued already and then have to concentrate on deep breathing, and this would stimulate what is happening in a race, and this would better transfer the skills of the SpiroTiger over to ones sport. Thanks Marcel | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2516 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo Marcel. This is a fascinating question and a great topic and it is nice to open this as a new thread. Please give me some time as it will be a multi task answer/ question, as we work for the moment in many aspects on this specific question. Be aware, that it may be not a real answer but rather an increase in discussion as we go along. I will get some pictures ready for the answers as we tested different aspects in using respiration pattern to see, what influence it may have on heart rate / stroke volume ( CO ) but as well on oxy and deoxygenation in Interval type of workouts but as well in endurance type of intensities with interruptions like you have in biathlon but as well in MTB and some other sports. Some of the case studies result we see are very different than we expected and as so often we have to get our mind around the ideas we had and believed and see, how common old questions could be answered with the new findings. I will prepare some of the case ideas and than we may be able to open a nice discussion. I like to start here with a question to you : How is your breathing frequency in the ski sections. a) Respiratory frequency ? b) Total air volume (VE) and therefor the Tidal volume per breath. second. Once you are in the shooting areas how is the respiratory frequency changing and with it the tidal volume. c) Did you ever tested the reaction of this changing to the stroke volume and to the re-oxygenation of the muscles . ? What is the reason or the explanation physiologically of the short sprints and what do we or your coaches believe it suppose to do in the body ? So will see you later on here with some directions and ideas. First a short explanation of the 1/3 or 33 %. Do have your pCO2 on a secure level the Spiro Tiger will adjust depending on the Bag size as well as the respiratory frequency the amount of " Fresh air " outside air , who has to get in to the air you re-breath with the bag air ( CO2 rich ) If you change this numbers without having a pCO2 sensor and or a SpO2 sensor you may get the risk of a too high p CO2 and a risk of a CO2 "poisoning" That's the reason why you can't use the spiro Tiger during exercises, as you add much more CO2 to it and the testing and calculations where done for resting position only. If people use the Spiro Tiger during activity , they better do this only , if they work with coaches together , who had a formal education and introduction into spiro Tiger training and understand what this means and what the real risk of this is. Same is true for using Spiro Tiger as a hypoxy training device. In Canada and the USA only FaCT certified coaches , who went through www.fact-eduucation.com have a proper idea and understanding on how to use this ideas. So for the actual spiro Tiger user there is the save basic usage as suggested by the Idiag company and than is the more detailed ideas based on FaCT studies. Dr. Andrew Sellars did many years back some interesting tests to see , how pCO2 would change using the Bar graph in the spiro old system and or the arrows in the new system and how far the SpO2 can drop to still be on the save side with the pCO2. Summary : Don't change anything in this settings. | ||
| Marcel New member Username: Marcel Post Number: 2 Registered: 04-2010 |
a) Respiratory frequency ? I have absolutely no idea, over the past few years I have once tested VO2 max combined with lactate testing during skiing and also on a treadmill but the VO2 was for information only and was regarded as just a figure to do nothing with so have never tested anything more than VO2. Only in the last few month reading the FACT forum and just starting to use the SpiroTiger I realise that having tested more this information would now be very useful. b) Total air volume (VE) and therefor the Tidal volume per breath. second. Once you are in the shooting areas how is the respiratory frequency changing and with it the tidal volume? First part of this question I don’t have any information for yet (just starting with SpiroTiger) second part I think this is what you after. The shooting range is the only aspect of our training where we concentrate on breathing and then it is only rhythm. Depending on the approach to the range I would normaly start taking deeper breaths and try to slow my breathing down so that it is more controlled in the range. Regardless of the approach once on the shooting mat the drills will be exactly the same to within 2 breaths for the 30 seconds on the mat. Loading up and getting into position I will start taking deep short breaths in anticipation for the shooting rhythm, then shot to shot I take one breath, inhale shallow and very quickly, hold my breath for a split of a second to take the shot, exhale slower cock the rifle and move to new target, (shot to shot about 1.8 to 2.1 seconds) after the last shot I will start breathing deeper again. So in 30 seconds I will hold my breath, deep and shallow breathing, quick and slower breathing, a contrast to what is happening out on the course where it would be more consistent. But once again I do not have any measured information on this I can only guess that skiing the RR is close to that of a cyclist as lactate threshold and HR max is similar (for me). c) Did you ever tested the reaction of this changing to the stroke volume and to the re-oxygenation of the muscles? once again no :-( What is the reason or the explanation physiologically of the short sprints and what do we or your coaches believe it suppose to do in the body ? After ski specific strength ie double poling legs only where we were going at a steady tempo. we would do several 10-15 seconds overspeed sprints, my understanding of it is it is to fire up the fast twitch muscles after grinding away at strength for a hour. But also the athlete is tired and fatigued and suddenly changing pace he has to stay coordinated to maintain technique for the 15 seconds and the high turn over of limb speed. I have experimented with this after races, cooling down running with short 5-6overspeed running sprints, from my understanding here this could also help with flushing the system better and I do feel good after cooling down this way but it could be psychological also. Just to change the subject a quick question on PCO2 on your last answer to me. maybe rather dumb question, I don't have a PCO2 sensor just monitoring O2 Sat. There is little relation between PCO2 and O2 Sat? meaning relying on o2 sat is not 100% secure? and you mention "do you have your PCo2 on a secure level"? you mean if I had a device the device needs to be level or the values in the reading is level? | ||
| Marcel New member Username: Marcel Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2010 |
Ok some infor for question a)just found some old data from VO2/lactate step testing on snow, although this was at altitude (1400m) but still interesting. Skiing at max effort I was breathing at about 70 Breaths per minute, for threshold I was at about 55 breaths per minute. never thought it would be this high! Trying to get hold of TV VC which is somewhere also in old data. | ||
| Art_k82 Senior Member Username: Art_k82 Post Number: 148 Registered: 10-2009 |
Hi Marcel, how did you obtain the data about the breaths per minute? Was it recorded by a machine or a sensor? It does seem high - perhaps the machine doublecounted. It would make more sense if your breaths were actually 35 and 27-28 breaths per minute. (sometimes, my heart rate monitor tells me my heart rate is 180 bpm when I start my workout, but I know it's actually 90 bpm) | ||
| Marcel New member Username: Marcel Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2010 |
Not sure what the machine was called, but we had a portable VO2 device (I assume similar in function used in a lab, It has been tested on a variety of sports) we skied breathed through a mask with pipes leading to a rucksack on our backs. The primary role of the device was VO2, but it gave other information such as frequency. My FVC from a spirometer is 5.17 L which i think is small which might also explain the higher breathing rate. Unfortunatley this is the only VO2 info I have for skiing. Have attached a photo probably doesnt give any more info but give a idea.  | ||
| Holman325 Senior Member Username: Holman325 Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2009 |
I would hazzard a guess that the device was the Fitmate, unless there is another type of device you can put into a knapsack and do an assessment. 70 does seem high, but 55 not too bad. Who did the assessment? I would think that maybe Jack would have done some assessments like this with his skiing background and having done Lactate testing etc... before. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2519 Registered: 04-2006 |
Marcel , I did not forgot you and some ideas. I am doing some additional testing this week and the case results are very interesting. 1. First of all to some of the answers here. 60 - 80 Respiration rates in Cross country skiing are very "normal" as most of the skiers don't really think at the breathing but much rather the motion of the double poling will create this high respiratory frequency. We tried in the late 1980 already to change this in preparation for the winter Olympics and where actually very successful. After that "generation " of skiers the idea died out as we stopped working with the skiers. For all critical readers who have a spiro tiger. Try to take a respiration speed of 65 breath per minute and take a 1.5 liter bag and see, whether you can go for 30 min. Have fun. If you take a 1.5 liter bag you will be equal to a TV of 2 liters in a race. From this 2 liters about 250 ml are dead space air movement. If you breath 2 liter ( if you can do that ) for 70 RF you move 140 liter . Our top cyclist training with Spiro Tiger can actually move above 200 liters. Now you calculate the different ways you can move 200 liter by playing around with RF and TV. The key is again like in any workout and racing . You have to race most efficient so find a RF and TV , where you are most relaxed. You have to train most inefficient which means use TV and RF for different purposes. Now breathing depth and speed seem to have a very direct impact on O2 Hb and deoxy Hb. There is teh question again , whether under hard racing conditions and in certain respiratory problems the traditional rules may not apply . Meaning . We learn, that 90 - 95 % of O2 is bound to Hb and if SpO2 is high 98 - 99 % that's all we can move. We know that some O2 can as well move without Hb in the Tissue and the questions is up for discussion , whether additional O2 breathing may change the intracellular O2 situation. The opposite discussion is teh fact that CO2 is not moved over Hb but mostly 80 % +- without needing Hb. Now in extreme intensities or problems it may as well sit on the Hb to get rid of and it may be a moment , where it is more important to get rid of CO2 than actually get O2 in. If that would be teh case we should see during a workout and under teh situation , where respiration is not the limiting factor,that the Oxy Hb should go up as we breath faster and despite the fact that FeO2 % will go up the OxyHb may go up as well and the hHb may stay the same, or drop. So that's what I did lats week. I got in contact with a company , who brought me a O2 compressor and we did many different test with very surprising reactions in the PortaMon results. Now I try to copy the respiration rate as I double pole and see, how I could change the reactions , as well add some different intervals ideas to it . Example. Intervals with fixed times 30 sec go hard 1 min rest Intervals , where i use HR as a guidance. Intervals where I use tissue sat and Oxy deoxy Hb as a guidance and see the outcome. So lot's of fun and many questions. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2520 Registered: 04-2006 |
. Using SpiroTiger as part of ones normal training programme. When we do long sessions or intervals and are tired we would then do ski technique work or very short sprints, as we would be tired in a race but still need to keep our technique going or suddenly change pace. We would mix our shooting training with a circuit session and be more fatigued than in a race. Would you say that in the same way doing SpiroTiger directly after a very hard sessions has a better training effect (overload and supercompensation), due to ones body and respiratory system being fatigued already and then have to concentrate on deep breathing, and this would stimulate what is happening in a race, and this would better transfer the skills of the SpiroTiger over to ones sport. Marcel , here some thoughts. Many of the ideas are actually from a former Austrian researcher. Hans Selye the actual father of the stress research. One of teh most striking findings over his many years of research is the fact that : " Stress " or stressing ( Training ) only makes sense, when we know the Stressor of the workout. Simple example. A workout for 1 hour at a specific HR or wattage is a Stress ( training ) . The problem is , that we often do not know what is the stressor , meaning that we have to know who and what is the weakest link at that particular day in this very specific workout. So the 1 hour workout could stress the heart as I may choose a heart rate with a stroke volume , which will push the cardiac system to its limit. Now the same workout over 1 hour with the same wattage could be a stress for coordination as I may try to go with a RPM goal of 140 / min. Or the same 1 hour workout in the same watt level area and even same km in the hour may be a stress for the respiratory system , as I may have a specific idea in mind to stimulate the inspiratory muscle system. 1. So we should try to know what we like to overload to understand the reaction and teh needed recovery after this workouts. In many cases I think we just hope we know , but really often have no clue what was stressed and what is fatigued and needs a rest and what could be stressed again immediately or at least the next training units. Now the biggest part of Hans Selye is the idea, that stressing or "overloading " does not has to be always real overload but just simply changes in teh way we stimulate a system. Example. I can go out and simply push very hard on the skies or bike to move my HR up as high as possible and hope that this is a great cardiac stimulation. I may use a high HR as the stressor for a overload of the cardiac output. By now, thanks to the Physio Flow we know, that this may be true but as well that it in some cases my be actually really wrong ,. If the cardiac sysytem or a part of the cardiac sysytem is the limitation we actually see drops in Stroke volumes on very high intensities and therefor the cardiac out put is less "overloaded" than in a lower HR. Here a printout from a situation in a Ironman triathlete , where we see the "fight " for a better SV and finally how he "looses" it due to possibly CGM. It was a Brick workout from bike interval to run and we have first a normal SV reaction on the run with a complete "collapse" as you can see at the end of the run.  Now in this case I don't think it would be smart to add an additional cardiac load to it as it was already overloaded. Would it be smart to add a spiro tiger workout to it . If teh respiratory system was not pushing hard yes you could. @ benefits. a) getting rid of the CO2 ( Respiratory acidosis ) without "burning of" lactate. and as well working for longer on the respiratory muscles. Now in this case his respiratory system was as well far above limits , as his TV dramatically dropped and his total VE actually dropped. Result was as well a "plateau " in the VO2. The only system , which may not have been pushed to its limit where his peripheral systems as the ECGM would actually shut them down. So here we could add a nice idea to work after more on the peripheral system by unloading the respiratory and the cardiac system. Here a first test we did with O2 supplement. What you see is a step test starting by 100 watt , 3 min steps till 260 . From there on blind with and without O2 for 2 x 3 min same wattage on 260 and 280 and 3 steps for 300 watts and 320 watts. blind with and without O2 . See carefully the reactions of oxygenation and deoxygenation and tHb.  Summary : The above ideas are great , when the coaches and or the athletes know , what system was already overloaded in teh actual workout and than that's it no more as you loose recovery time or you overload too much. As you know , what your stressor was you can add after teh workout an additional workout to teh strongest link by eliminating the already overloaded links. So if in a workout teh limitation was your coordination and technique than to add another technical element at the end does not make a lot of sense, as you already overloaded this system. If the limitation was your respiration by that particular workout it does not make sense to add an additional respiratory stress to it. If teh respiration was not pushed at all in the workout , yes you could add at the end some spiro tiger work to it . For example you did a long slow endurance work and now you can add a respiratory co-ordination work to it . The key in respiratory training is like in any muscle training. a ) specific muscle traiing. b) co-ordination training c) muscle "balance traiing" You can have a co-ordination problem due to a dysharmonie in the muscle chain or you can have a coordination problem due to a dys balance in the agonist and antagonistique reactions. With the Spirotiger you can adress both . With the power lung or any similar device you only address straight. The respiratory system in the most cases is an endurance effort and as such has to be train often in this way. In some cases like fighting sport you may like to have some expiratory strength which can nicely be train with the power lung . | ||
| Marcel New member Username: Marcel Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2010 |
Wow! A lot of food for thought! Thanx Juerg. I have also started to re read the whole Spirotiger forum and am learning things I had missed the first time. The question still would be how one can transfer the skills from using Spirotiger (correct breathing, and using the improved TV, VC) to race or high intensity situations without the respiratory system falling apart as often ones ski technique would. Falling apart I mean by breathing too shallow creating too much co2, o2 etc not using more of ones TV compared to i.e. assuming this would be more advantageous the same frequency and deeper breathing (bigger TV). Or would by having used Spirotiger for a long time, naturally fall in place? Juerg, could you please briefly explain what the green blue and red graph lines are in your last graph? What is happened when the lines meet at colum ‘f-g’? and colums ‘v’ would be where either oxygenation or deoxygenating was used, but which lines are oxygenated? And how would this reaction at ‘v’ be replicated in the SpiroTiger? | ||
| Marcel Junior Member Username: Marcel Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2010 |
Ok here is some more questions, sorry! Using SpiroTiger as a recovery aid. There is some information under the topic ‘why the Spiro Tiger may help in recovery’ does anyone using SpiroTiger with this protocol have any more ideas or experiences with this, and what would the breathing rate be? Then, take this idea abit further could this recovery protocol be used in-between hard intervals to recover for the next interval. Or use the protocol for recovery in the opposite way (see forum topic ‘SpiroTiger before races’ about 10 post down.) Bar on the right to clear lactate!? So maybe one has 6x4-6 min max sprints with a 3 to 5 min recovery between, would using the SpiroTiger in such a short time, lets say for 2min, have enough of a effect to give a better recovery than say just having a easy run, walk, ski before the next interval? Or would lets say ones lungs already be stressed and this protocol (2min) would push the lungs over the limit, versus recovery for the rest of the body. But if cardio was the stressor could this work to keep on going! Or find (‘SpiroTiger before races') a condensed protocol and use this for perhaps short intervals with short recovery time. And then use the Recovery before races Protocol where recovery is longer say 5 to 10 min and the intervals are longer? Any thought on this or am I trying to abuse SpiroTiger in the wrong way and maybe keep SpirtoTiger and normal training separate! :-( Marcel :-) | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2523 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here a small attempt to dry to give some additional infos. First : On the three coloured graph. Red is oxy Hb (or the relative amount of Hb , which is loaded with oxygen.) Blue is the opposite. Hb which is unloaded of O2. So if blue is increasing , that means we use more and more O2 from the available O2 in this working muscle. So normally you would assume that if blue goes up red would drop. This is the case as long green ( which is the total Hb or the blood volume ) will stay the same. If green is increasing we may see an increase in blue but as well an increase in red, as more blood is coming in the working muscles. Second. Remember , that the spiroTiger is a tool like any other fitness equipment to try to improve a specific muscle or muscle sling and or co-ordination. As on the skis you can make long strides or shorter , long workouts and sprints for the specific muscles needed in cross country skiing and you need skis to do this you use the Spiro Tiger the same way for the muscle groups involved in the respiration performance. So the key is, as it is for the improvement of your skiing , that the athlete and or the coach will assess this muscle groups and see the strenght and the weakness and accordingly will use the same ideas as for skiing for the respiration. As you may work without poles to concentrate on leg movement you may work specifically on inspiration and or expiration or on the other weak possibilities. So you train specific but than need to integrate this into the full picture of your sport. Now that's what the whole Forum over the last ten years try to search for. We have to assess an athletes system in a test all together but with the ability to see more info from each system. In an all out wattage test we , as so often written here, do not believe , that you see anything specific . You simply see, when the whole team has to stop but you do not know , who or what system forced this limitation first and why we where able to go a bit longer despite the fact , that one system was already above and beyond its ability. That's where the limiter and the compensator comes in. So if the respiratory system is not properly assessed we have no clue , whether it is the limiter or compensator. Same is for the heart and as well for the peripheral system. Now back to your point. If the respiratory system in the workout you just did ( like the suggested interval ) is the limiter than there is no point to use the Spiro in between for recovery , as it is already on the limit and really needs the time in between to recover. If the respiratory system is the compensator in the same workout than you have to see, whether you pushed it as well to the limit as it had to compensate and than there is no point either. If it is the compensator and was not pushed to the limit at all, than it can be used to speed up recovery in the rest period , as it will help to get rid of the CO2 and as you use the spirotiger you can work nicely and will see a recovery. Than you can use this later in a race situation ( down hill section ) and or in a sprint relay. That's' where the three coloured NIRS testing comes in. We can see live in any training you choose, whether the interventions you do in the rest period in an interval or during the shooting improve or worsen the oxygen trend in the working muscles. We can see now on some cases, that specific respiratory interventions can change the Oxygenation easy or not, as well that some type of respiration can have an influence on EDV and therefor on the Stroke volume. The beauty is , that we and the client can see this live during the workout and have a direct feedback on the info. Can you imagine in your sport the coach sits behind the shooting place and can see live the oxygenation trend with the different intervention he like to try out and can see instantly the reaction. Same as well for the cardiac situation You may have one athlete , where deep breathing may be very good for the shooting and you may have in the same team an other athlete, where very rapid hyper ventilation before shooting may be much better. We may have a difference in shooting by holding the breath different and try to increased CO2 as a goal. We know , that CO2 can increase blood flow with vasodilation and one area, where this can happen is the eye. So it would be interesting to work with an eye specialist and use the Spiro Tiger and manipulate different SpO2 situation and the eye specialist could look at the reaction and the change in Vision during the workout. Summary. Test individually your system find the weakness and the strenght of each system and then it is very easy to understand when and where the spiro Tiger will be of lot's of help and when not at all or actually even negative.. Here as a short example but we take the cardiac system CO = cardiac output is the performance of the heart measured in liter per min. Now when we look only from the heart than a top athlete where the cardiac system is a compensator and not limiter has different ways to play with the CO. He can simply increase HR CO = HR x SV He can increase only Stroke volume. The stroke volume can be increase if the heart allows it over bigger return of blood volume. Meaning that we bring more blood in the circulatory system and therefor have a bigger preload. Or we can increase SV over increase in ejection time. Now the problem is, that if you only can increase CO over HR as you very early on reach the full SV by the highest possible Ejection fraction your are very limited with the system You have one additional possibility , which is the LVET but as well if this is not adjusting very well you will just simply see a drop in Blood volume on the NIRS , as soon the heart reaches its limit. Now saying that you could over time possibly develop a much better TSI % so your body may learn to extract much more O2 from the tissue than in other people. The risk here is , if this is your only compensator you will see very big performance fluctuations, as the TSI % seem to be very delicate and reacting on Food and time zone change and possible other not yet understood factors. Now in breathing you have something similar. You have instead of CO VE. VE = RF x TV . and instead of TSI % you may see the change in SpO2 and or in FeO2 %. So the key is here as it is with the heart to have as many options as possible to improve the VE and with it the movement of O2 from the lungs to the blood. Question. In your VO2 test you did how high was the FeO2 % and what is your SpO2 normally at the end of an all out test. ? | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2524 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here a small attempt to dry to give some additional infos. First : On the three coloured graph. Red is oxy Hb (or the relative amount of Hb , which is loaded with oxygen.) Blue is the opposite. Hb which is unloaded of O2. So if blue is increasing , that means we use more and more O2 from the available O2 in this working muscle. So normally you would assume that if blue goes up red would drop. This is the case as long green ( which is the total Hb or the blood volume ) will stay the same. If green is increasing we may see an increase in blue but as well an increase in red, as more blood is coming in the working muscles. Second. Remember , that the spiroTiger is a tool like any other fitness equipment to try to improve a specific muscle or muscle sling and or co-ordination. As on the skis you can make long strides or shorter , long workouts and sprints for the specific muscles needed in cross country skiing and you need skis to do this you use the Spiro Tiger the same way for the muscle groups involved in the respiration performance. So the key is, as it is for the improvement of your skiing , that the athlete and or the coach will assess this muscle groups and see the strenght and the weakness and accordingly will use the same ideas as for skiing for the respiration. As you may work without poles to concentrate on leg movement you may work specifically on inspiration and or expiration or on the other weak possibilities. So you train specific but than need to integrate this into the full picture of your sport. Now that's what the whole Forum over the last ten years try to search for. We have to assess an athletes system in a test all together but with the ability to see more info from each system. In an all out wattage test we , as so often written here, do not believe , that you see anything specific . You simply see, when the whole team has to stop but you do not know , who or what system forced this limitation first and why we where able to go a bit longer despite the fact , that one system was already above and beyond its ability. That's where the limiter and the compensator comes in. So if the respiratory system is not properly assessed we have no clue , whether it is the limiter or compensator. Same is for the heart and as well for the peripheral system. Now back to your point. If the respiratory system in the workout you just did ( like the suggested interval ) is the limiter than there is no point to use the Spiro in between for recovery , as it is already on the limit and really needs the time in between to recover. If the respiratory system is the compensator in the same workout than you have to see, whether you pushed it as well to the limit as it had to compensate and than there is no point either. If it is the compensator and was not pushed to the limit at all, than it can be used to speed up recovery in the rest period , as it will help to get rid of the CO2 and as you use the spirotiger you can work nicely and will see a recovery. Than you can use this later in a race situation ( down hill section ) and or in a sprint relay. That's' where the three coloured NIRS testing comes in. We can see live in any training you choose, whether the interventions you do in the rest period in an interval or during the shooting improve or worsen the oxygen trend in the working muscles. We can see now on some cases, that specific respiratory interventions can change the Oxygenation easy or not, as well that some type of respiration can have an influence on EDV and therefor on the Stroke volume. The beauty is , that we and the client can see this live during the workout and have a direct feedback on the info. Can you imagine in your sport the coach sits behind the shooting place and can see live the oxygenation trend with the different intervention he like to try out and can see instantly the reaction. Same as well for the cardiac situation You may have one athlete , where deep breathing may be very good for the shooting and you may have in the same team an other athlete, where very rapid hyper ventilation before shooting may be much better. We may have a difference in shooting by holding the breath different and try to increased CO2 as a goal. We know , that CO2 can increase blood flow with vasodilation and one area, where this can happen is the eye. So it would be interesting to work with an eye specialist and use the Spiro Tiger and manipulate different SpO2 situation and the eye specialist could look at the reaction and the change in Vision during the workout. Summary. Test individually your system find the weakness and the strenght of each system and then it is very easy to understand when and where the spiro Tiger will be of lot's of help and when not at all or actually even negative.. Here as a short example but we take the cardiac system CO = cardiac output is the performance of the heart measured in liter per min. Now when we look only from the heart than a top athlete where the cardiac system is a compensator and not limiter has different ways to play with the CO. He can simply increase HR CO = HR x SV He can increase only Stroke volume. The stroke volume can be increase if the heart allows it over bigger return of blood volume. Meaning that we bring more blood in the circulatory system and therefor have a bigger preload. Or we can increase SV over increase in ejection time. Now the problem is, that if you only can increase CO over HR as you very early on reach the full SV by the highest possible Ejection fraction your are very limited with the system You have one additional possibility , which is the LVET but as well if this is not adjusting very well you will just simply see a drop in Blood volume on the NIRS , as soon the heart reaches its limit. Now saying that you could over time possibly develop a much better TSI % so your body may learn to extract much more O2 from the tissue than in other people. The risk here is , if this is your only compensator you will see very big performance fluctuations, as the TSI % seem to be very delicate and reacting on Food and time zone change and possible other not yet understood factors. Now in breathing you have something similar. You have instead of CO VE. VE = RF x TV . and instead of TSI % you may see the change in SpO2 and or in FeO2 %. So the key is here as it is with the heart to have as many options as possible to improve the VE and with it the movement of O2 from the lungs to the blood. Question. In your VO2 test you did how high was the FeO2 % and what is your SpO2 normally at the end of an all out test. ? | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2533 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here some more info on this ongoing interesting discussion. 1. We will have to get a closer look on the effect of "hyperventilation" but as well on the influence of pCO2 on vasoconstriction and or dilatation. The question , respectively the answer is as so often, that the discussion is not possible to be used as a guide line as we need more info on individual reactions. I like to show that on some additional infos I got from Marcel and he allowed me to use his info on here. Thanks so much Marcel, as we get many mails and questions from all over the world with questions like you have but we are not allowed to use the info and or name on here. Result : We can't just simply not give any info over email , as we like to have the mainstream readers involved in the discussions. So let's start and you will see, before we have for you an answer we need more info from you so more questions from our side. Marcel shows as a very classical way on how we use "test-results" Here the info. Results are max infos. SpO2 not tested. FeO2 % 17.5 % at the end ( max ) but was between 14 - 16 % before entering "race pace" RF 83 breath per min VE 215 l/ min TV therefor 2.6 L This is as mentioned a typical test result on a max value. Remember that in the FaCT ideas we think that the max result is the overall summary of the work of a whole team. Here we have some info of the "team member" respiration System. The values are impressive but we don't know how the "team member" respiration developed to this end values Question. We need the RF and the VE as well as the FeO2 % from each step you did to see the trend in each of this team members ability to adjust to the functional needs during this step test. Was TV always 2.6 +- or did you had a much bigger TV in certain intensities.? What is your VC ( Vital capacity ) as 2.6 TV does not tell us a lot as we do not know how big the VC is. If you VC would be 4.5 liter than TV 2.6 in an all out situation would be incredible. If your VC is 6.8 L than TV is okay. The next part is to see the trend in respiratory frequency during the step test . By the way this was a step test on a bike and the respiratory frequency is incredible high for on a bike but possible. Certainly from a cross country skier it is often the case, as they are used to breath that fast on the skies so the coordination is here for the fast movement of the air between abdominal and diaphragm coordination. Marcel can manage on teh Spiro Tiger a 2.3 liter bag on 46 RF with a stable SpO2 . As soon he is going higher the SpO2 drops. If you use a 2.3 liter bag and you can maintain the bar-graph in the middle or the single bar stable than you have actually a TV of just above 3 liter. 2.6 liter TV in a test would be equal as to use a 1.9 liter bag. So this for now and we can keep going with some ideas on here, as the info is coming in. Nice to see at last would be as well the trend in VO2 in ml and whether this all out max VO2 test actually showed up with a plateau as discussed in many threads or not. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2535 Registered: 04-2006 |
"I will start taking deep short breaths in anticipation for the shooting rhythm, then shot to shot I take one breath, inhale shallow and very quickly, hold my breath for a split of a second to take the shot, exhale slower cock the rifle and move to new target, (shot to shot about 1.8 to 2.1 seconds) after the last shot I will start breathing deeper again. " Marcel I need help here. a) Deep short breath. This is a kind of a contradiction for me. Deep means often more volume. To move more volume you need more time as the air pipe has only so much opening to move. So deep and short ? The second problem or question with this would be as well, that if you "force deep and short together you may actually have to activate the auxiliary muscles which may be not that smart in connection with shooting. We did a EMG study including respiratory active testing with an Olympic shooter 7 years ago here in Quesnel and changed very much the respiratory pattern, as during the shooting the athlete and coach steady had to adjust the gun , which I think is the only accurate part and the changes where needed due to "fatigue" of vision and muscles. The vision my change out of a very interesting part. A high CO2 level will create a vasodilatation in the brain but as well in the eye. This will change decision making but as well vision and therefore can change the target view. Some shooters will hyperventilate (creating a hypocapnia ) and loose the benefit of vasodilatation and in fact create due to hypocapnia which creates a vasoconstriction and can cause slightly lightheadedness due to reduce blood flow to the brain but as well as changes the vision due to reduction in blood flow the the eye ( muscle ) Hypercapnia treatments are used in eastern europe and in the olden days in bath therapy in europe on people to increase blood flow and for diabetic I people to maintain a better eye circulation to avoid early destruction of this very small capillary bed. So it seems very counter-intuitive but too much breathing actually results in a decrease in blood supply to the brain and the eye's. Now what that means is: You have to know your strength and weakness in your team member ( Respiratory system ) is your inspiration and expiration in balance or not. The Power lung is very great to work on strength for the expiration. This can lead to a hypocapnic trend, which is great to feel somewhat better after a race a and or intervals as you help to reduce H+ over respiratory alkalosis idea but in fact may be of a big disadvantage during certain parts in your sport which is shooting. Inspiration and expiration have to be in a balanced stage like we try to achieve in many other antagonistic muscle situation. Secondly you like to have a minimal involvement of the auxiliary muscles as you go into the shooting range as well. Summary: You have to talk with your coach about this strength and weaknesses and help each other out with understanding what you like to achieve besides just simply be faster. What system is the reason for failure first and how can you eliminate this and specifically work on this. 215 l VE and 83 RF with a TV of 2.6 are incredible great respiratory values and I wonder, whether this system may be your actual strength rather than weakness and you may have to take a closer look at your cardiac system. The low SpO2 values you show as well,may indicate that your ability to extract peripheral O2 great and could easy be tested by checking the Tissue saturation of O2 rather than the SpO2. Here a pic from a world class athlete with a cardiac limitation and very similar SpO2 values as you have and a very great respiratory system as well. First the TSI % from the top athlete and as you can see he can drop close to 40 % ( Only seen in people with years of respiratory problem and then the structural adjustment from the body to have an incredible peripheral ability.  The next one is a very common TSI % picture in people where the peripheral system is the limitation. This is an Ironman athlete.  | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2542 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here some more questions and thoghts in our ongoing discussion. " Hallo Marcel, Thanks for the reply. 2 areas to think through : 1. What consequences do different depth of breathing have on different body systems. What is the outcome of Deep breathing with a higher intrapulmonary pressure on perfusion , diffusion and O2 CO2 situation and what are the benefits or disadvantages in shooting and or recovery from this reactions.? Something , which you have to discuss with your coach. 2. Information's we may gather from SpO2 readings. SpO2 readings have the advantage , that they are easy and now as well cheap to do. Nevertheless we have to be aware of what SpO2 levels mean and how accurate they may or may not be. SpO2 levels give you the information on " Loaded situation of O2 to the Hb after the blood leaves The lungs ( got loaded , moves through the heart and than is moving to the place you actually test with the O2 sensor ( Mostly ear and fingers ) The question is, whether a workout, where you mainly use legs like biking and or running and you may attract lot's more blood to the lower body may there for have an influence on SpO2 levels we read on a finger. The questions arrive, whether the drop is due to shift in blood to the legs as well as other reasons in O2 saturation. This open questions, where we can't find clear answers from the Sport science communities led us to the shift oif actually testing the O2 situation in the working muscle cell itself , instead in the finger or ear. The results we see in our small and unpublished cases studies very often contradict the ideas we previously had, including the reactions of respiratory interventions and for the moment we have rather more questions towards traditional ideas we thought where great and the reality we gather from live testing. The NIRS ( PortaMon ) helps us to keep our mind open, but as well reopens many questions, we thought we had solved. 3. You write , that you may have learned to "pace" yourself better in the interval sessions. This is one of the areas we re-open many questions and we are working with some Icehockey coaches on this interesting field on how to actually execute intervalls and circuits or repetitions in workouts. Once you "Pace " interval sessions you may change the end result , respectively the physiological stressor immensely. Everybody who did the first time 10 x 400 m or any similar idea, will learn after one workout , that to finish the workout: 10 x 400 m in a decent way you can't afford to go all out every time, otherwise the last 400 m will be very very slow. So the result after the first experience is to "pace" and therefore possibly changing the end result of the workout very dramatically. That's our point we have, that a planned interval is a "paced " interval and as well it is planned on physical ideas like numbers ( 10 x ) or distance like 400m or time like 60 seconds or watts like 250 watts. All this targets have nothing to do with physiological stimulation ideas but rather are based on organisatorically easier way to run a group through a workout schedule. Our trend is towards an individually organized "interval" where coach nor athlete have no idea till to the end of the workout how many repetitions will be done , nor hoa long they will be nor how long the rest period will be. You may have one stable info. Example. Your target is to always have 1 min rest but you as well will always go all out and you stop the all out once you reach the same physiological stress. How do we do this:? We look at intracellular O2 levels and deoxylevels and the trend in tHb ( Blood volume ) and as well the direct info in the Tissue saturation , which is the info on how much % of O2 I have in this working muscle. We have the ability now to do this live over an open distance of easy 500 - 800 m so any track workout and or rowing interval in a rowing lake and or bike interval on a track or speed skating and or follow on a snow mobile a skier and or in a car on a road cyclists can be done and therefore we can very easy individualize the workout. Can you imagine a Pro cycling team with a multi million dollar budget and a TT bike with cosy over 20'000 dollar would have to take 16'000 dollar only and they have a major step forward towards clean sport versus internal ideas on how to "cheat" and work around drug testing. A nice idea but not reality , why would a Team manager start thinking for the long term, when he has to bring results now and not tomorrow. Same may hold true for many coaching positions , as well as the work involved to actually plan individual programs versus having one workout fits all approach. So as we go along you can see that there are many options this days out for anybody, but it will take another 10 - 15 years to catch on, as ideas with HR monitors and lactate Pro, as well other ideas have. The traditional institutional thinking is a a possibly reason for delay in progress. look at much bigger problems like MS research now with the idea of blood flow problems and the hesitation of " Big research" center to accept the fact that this could be ( perhaps it is not ) a possible new direction of research. Cheers Juerg Hello Jeurg, Here is the reply to the shooting question for the forum treat 'some more SpiroTiger questions'. Yes you are right i did contradict myself, and i have done some dryfiring to check, it is short shallow breaths (not short deep). Taking a too deep breath takes too long for the next shot and would change the shooting rhythm. A shallow breath is just enough air so that i can hold my breath for the split second or longer if i need to due to wind picking up etc. As far as i am aware and can see on videos i am not using external muscles for the breathing. I have this week done some more track running sessions at about race pace and experimented with hypernea again with similar results as before (see previous email below). Although on all end of 800meter track sessions regardless of hypernea or normal breathing my SpO2 would only drop to 94 apart from one rep with a sat of 93. compared to previous track sessions where SpO2 drops to 92 consistently with simialar running times and similar ave heart rate. Some conclusions, I have been using SpiroTiger now for 5 weeks 6 days a week, Maybe i am staring to see some results from using SpiroTiger, mybe i am pacing the intervals better, SpO2 down to 92 was at the start of summer training maybe i am more running fit now, maybe psychological wanting to see a result, or a combination of better breathing and the rest of the mentioned things? not sure but i will continue to experiment and see what happens. You may once again use these figures with the previous email i had sent with the attached excel spreadsheet on the forum so that all can learn. Regards Marcel Thanks and I will think thorugh this info. Can you sent me the actual VO2 numbers in ml as well as your body weight ? Juerg Hello Jeurg, This is some of the results from my last VO2 max bike test for the last question you asked on the post ‘some more SpitoTiger questions’, you may post these questions and results on the forum if you wish, some of it info, some questions and some just stuff that I have found. Still not too sure how to use the FeO2 and SpO2 results with the SpiroTiger so any hints would be helpful. 1) Results for max. SpO2 Not measured (see below) FeO2 17.5% (it averages about 14 to 16% before entering race pace) RF 83 per/min VE 215 l/min TV 2.6 l From a 800m track interval session running at at or just below race pace I have measured my SpO2 and this drops down consistently to 92%. I did a standard running step test (non LBP) where my SpO2 drops to 92% where I would say it is about 8 PE (race pace) before my SpO2 rises to 94/95%? (I had a finger oximeter and took measurements during the 15sec pause in lacate tests.) 2) My tidal volume from the max test (2.6 l) seems high? for my max breathing frequency (83)? On the SpiroTiger I can just manage a 2.3 L bag 46 RR, any higher my SpO2 starts to drop and/or I can’t keep the bar in the middle? I can probably manage more but I would start breathing too shallow to keep the frequency. (On a 3 L bag I can go to 33/35 RR on the step test. A 2 L bag to 53RR) 3) During 800m track interval session I have tried to use hypernea between sprints (with out SpiroTiger, just breathing deeply) to raise my SpO2 to 99% compared to with normal breathing where my SpO2 recovers to 96%. I have found to feel better during the first half of the interval with slightly faster splits After which the time splits return to normal. I would still finish with s SpO2 of 92/93. 4) Is there a safe protocol for using SpiroTiger for recovery, I have experimented using shallow breathing bar left on a 2.3l bag at about 40 RR which I can control with out the machine shutting down dropping my sat to a stable 92/91% and keeping there for about 10min. Is this correct for recovery? 5) IHT, I understand the normal IHT idea and time protocol and not dropping O2 sat below 89% but is the IHT training done the same as mentioned in 4 to reduce the SpO2, shallow breathing and is a 40RR ok? Regards Hallo Marcel great questions and I will try to make some thoughts back on teh Forum as thsi is a very often ask discussion with not yet complet great answers. So please check on teh forum for this information as a kind of a summary. Thanks Juerg dear juerg, Thanks for all the informative and helpful replies on the thread I started (Some more SpiroTiger questions). Regarding the last question you asked me, I might need some time to get back with some figures as I don’t think I have data for FeO2 or SpO2 for end of max test , and I am trying to find somewhere that I can do a step test in the next two months on a treadmill (on rollerskis) and test the respertory system. Not that easy when there is no FACT centre in Europe or more specifically Germany. A quick question on SpiroTiger as I have read conflicting information and am getting very confused. a) In the SpiroTiger Forum, under ‘SpiroTiger before races’ 13 posts down you mention keep bar graph on right and this will drop Lactate. But then in the Genaral forum under ‘not too extreme’ you mention that with a high PCO2 bar on left the lactate drops? b) Then under also in the general forum ‘active vs passive recovery’ you challenge the idea to use SpiroTiger with bar on the right for more O2 to get rid of CO2 (which seems to make sense when I would finish a race and gasp for air, or cougth to get rid of CO2, unless that is something else.) but what happened to the old idea of a higher PCO2 bar on left for recovery idea? I didn’t want to post this in the forum as there might be a logical explanation for it and I didn’t want to clutter the forum with nnecessary questions. Regards Marcel Marcel , thanks for your nice question. Please feel free to either e mail the questions and we can at least try to help you , but as well one option is to ask the question directly over the Forum as many may have similar questions and so all can benefit and we can learn all together. Thanks Juerg I live in europe and did not buy my SpiroTiger from Fact-Canada. I understand that you give information on training ideas bag sizes, IHT training etc for customers who bought the product from you. Is there a way that I could get access to this or some information from you by eg paying a subscription fee? So far I have only gathered information from the forum and as far as I am aware we don't even have this kind of support (or even published knowledge) in Europe, at least not in english! Any help would be greatfull. Regards | ||
| Jst81161 Senior Member Username: Jst81161 Post Number: 71 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hello I was wondering if there is a protocol for using the spirotiger while walking on treadmill with an oximeter as a workout to improve at various endurance sports? |