Post Number: 105
|Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 12:56 am: |
I was on the Spirotiger website (Spirotiger.ch) and I opened up the pamphlet. Aside from all the good looking European models (does it turn my appearance into how they look), I had a few questions about the Spirotiger which I don't really understand:
1) It claims:
Respiratory training devices without a breathing bag are therefore not suitable
for endurance training of the respiratory muscles. SpiroTiger® is the
only respiratory trainer for the all-round, targeted endurance training of your
Why is breathing in your CO2 so important? I would like to understand how this improves the respiratory muscles specifically. I would have thought that hypoxic training (as defined by lower amount of oxygen in the amount inhaled) would have an impact on the blood-oxygen-haemoglobin interaction, as opposed to developing the respiratory muscles.
Is it because of the reduced concentration of oxygen that I have to breathe HARDER and therefore develop (structurally) the muscles to improve tidal volume? And then the functional, long-term adaptation is that I can train harder overall and improve mitochondrial density and capillarization throughout the body?
2. Specific endurance training of the respiratory muscles is not possible without
special training equipment because hyperventilation soon occurs with
the familiar symptoms of dizziness.
I don't understand this either - why would using a Powerbreathe or a Powerlung cause hyperventilation? Those devices, if I am not mistakened, actually reduce the amount of air you're sucking in, and the recommended protocol is to go slow and encourage deeper breathing.
3. However, during sporting activity, the respiratory muscles can tire, having a
detrimental effect on sporting performance as Prof. Boutellier, sports psychologist
at ETH and the University of Zurich, has proved quite conclusively.
Endurance training (e.g. jogging, cycling), however, is generally not enough
to counteract this effect. Normal endurance training does not train the respiration
Why would endurance trainng not train the respiration system sufficiently? If we train according to FaCT principles (and we assume we are only as good as our limitation), then if we train so that we don't constantly overfatigue the respiratory system (thereby putting the respiratory muscles in a constant state of catabolism), why would we not improve? Or, is the comment above just trying to say that "yes, you can improve, but it won't be as fast as if you used the Spirotiger"
4. And from your own FaCT-Canada website: This could be compared with a high intensity session that a marathon runner might do by running 400m as an all out sprint. If a marathon runner trains like this the effect would be to change his muscle fibre ability and produce a bad marathon runner and not a good 400m runner. If the runner was genetically good for endurance distances then it would decrease the ability of his STF to work and if he was not genetically predisposed (i.e. had higher percentage of FTF) then you could alter his muscle ‘make-up’ considerably. The diaphragm is predominantly STF as the respiratory system can be classed as having an endurance role. So using a system that tends to improve the efficiency of FTF is of no benefit.
I am trying to find some literature behind the claim that the Powerlung works the FTF predominantly, while the Spirotiger works STF proportionately more than the Powerlung. Juerg, can you explain this mechanism logically if there is no literature?
Post Number: 24
|Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 04:04 am: |
Hey Art. Shoot me an email of list sometime. I would like to chat. firstname.lastname@example.org
Post Number: 2437
|Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 11:06 am: |
Great questions Art as usual. Here a short summary as you will find the answers in the Spiro Tiger Forum section.
1. The CO2 does not improve your diaphragm function.
What you need is a certain pCO2 so you are not getting hypocapnic ( too low pCO2 makes you dizzy ) So as you re-breath a part of your air from the bag you will stay with the PCO2 in an optimal range, so you can do the workout for very long without getting dizzy. The optimal range is guided by the steering unit and it as well observes and controls the opposite ( Hypercapnia ( too high pCO2 due to too shallow breathing with the unit.
If your pCO2 and indirectly your SpO2 will move into dangerous levels the unit will first warn you and than will shut down if you don't change the respiration.
If you do a powerling you can do that very hard breathing for 2 - 30 breath and than the pCO2 will be too low.
So you can do interval training sessions with the power lung for strength of the abdominal and or the diaphragm. What you can't do is doing this as a LSD workout over a long time 20 - 30 min. ( see above) So you will workout a different idea , which you may like to do but as mentioned it is the same as you do a leg press with heavy weight to be a good marathon runner or you do a long 3 hour jog to be a good weight lifter. No problem booth can do it , but if one or the other is doing this daily over a few month it may interfere with his original goal in his sport.
Summary. The Spiro Tiger allows you a save and secure respiratory workout very a long time with controlled VE RF and TV . So once you know the limitation of your respiration you can use the info to design a Spiro Tiger workout.
\ Example. End of a test or at LBP you breath 100 l VE and 40 x / min RF your TV is 2.5 liter.
Your VC is 5.9 liter you may see, that lot's of your "genetic" is not used, as you only move below 50 %.
Or you see , that you breath 60 per minute and your FeO2 % is increasing and you try in the workout to breath 30 times and your FeO2 % is decreasing but you can't do that very long as you get tired you may decide, that the respiration could be a limitation. So you may have a frequency problem or a Volume problem or a coordination problem.
Post Number: 2438
|Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 11:14 am: |
The "models" are actually all athletes.
Nicola Spirig Look in an World cup in triathlon women's.
Gut and Gysin look in any world cup downhill skiing
Nino Shurter look for example on 2009 World championship.
Florian Vogel look in any MTB world cup. And so on.
Just to see, that you can look good and actually be as well.
There are actually even good looking Girls on the Website from the USA , who use Spiro Tiger.
( Smile ) it may be the great breathing could be sold as a beauty treatment and may sell actually much better than as a training device.
You go under literature like Powerlungs and see the research they take to "proof " their point and you will find mainly Spengler Boutellier as the reference but no mentioning, that they used Spiro Tiger for the great result.
Post Number: 106
|Posted on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 12:09 am: |
I talked to Pedalpro on the phone, who was very patient and understanding with my questions, to give me a brief overview of how he uses the device.
I am convinced that something like this would be of great use to me.
Now, the more difficult task of convincing the girlfriend of how to afford this. Clearly I cannot just buy it. So I am thinking of selling some items (like carbon race wheels, hahaha) to try to afford it. I am going to try to sell off most of my equipment to afford it, because if I decide to focus on running, there is no "equipment" I really need! (Just get out there and RUN!)
Post Number: 107
|Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 07:24 am: |
if I were to get the Spirotiger, but my *current* primary limitation is not respiratory, is there any reason that I would/should use it at this point?
Post Number: 25
|Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 09:23 am: |
I have always found good results / feeling with at least 2x20min sessions a week
the benefit in coordination/control at higher intensities especially is something that I think is benefitial, if not physiologically, then for sure in RPE.
also as a warmup for harder sessions or races i have found huge benefit in lower RPE of the start / early portion of workout
love to hear others' standpoints / experiences on this ... good question ART
Post Number: 108
|Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 07:11 am: |
And how do I know what size of bags I need?
Post Number: 24
|Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 07:20 am: |
That is where the Spiropet / KOKO comes in handy, but really a true idea of what size bags you need comes from the level 2/3 assessments, where you get VO2 data combined with LBP info, to obtain Tidal Volumes at LBP and on the ramp. This will be based on the limiting factors, are you limited by your coordination at LBP, are you limited by your TV, in relation to your VC, do you need structural adaptations, etc...
Then training prescription can be for structure, coordination, and functional adaptations.
We can go over these respiratory training ideas when you want to book a level 2/3 / FaCT IRIS assessment. Follow up in Email.
Post Number: 2449
|Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 07:37 am: |
There is not just the question of limiter but as well as for compensator.
If the respiratory system is your limiter than you have to assess, whether it is the coordiantion of the respiration, is it the Frequency of the respiration , is it the inspiratory strenght or the expiratory strenght and last but not least is it simply the respiratory endurnace.
If the respiratory system is the compensator, then the key is to see, how you compensate ( over frequency and or over TV )
Than the question in a race is, whether teh problem is to increase O2 intake ( TV up ) or whther at that stage it is a problem of CO2 or to get ride of CO2.
Andri is working currently on some ideas and test to see with NIRS and FeCO2 , whether the deoxygenation simply will be high due to too much CO2.
70 - 80 % of CO2 is moved in other means than on Hb. Once the CO2 is very high it will as well be moved on Hb and teh question here is , whether the deeoxyHb goes up not becasue we use too much O2 but rather OxyHb stayeslow becasue the bodies priority now is to get rid of CO2. So yes Spiro Tiger can be anice tool in any casse, if we kbnow where and how to use it.
Post Number: 109
|Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 09:07 am: |
Thanks for the input, guys. I've got "executive clearance" from the lady to purchase it. Now the question for me is which size bags, and how to use it.
Post Number: 26
|Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 10:02 am: |
bag size is pretty customizable with the little 'clips' (like the ones used to close bags of chips). I just marked where i put the clip on the bag so that each workout on X bag size is basically same bag size when pinched
... i have a 1.5 / 2.5 and 3L ... 3L is pretty challenging for me but I am a smaller athlete.
if/when i order more bags i think i would go 2L / 3 L and 4L then customize (clip/pinch) from there but knowing actual bag size for TV and corresponding bag size would be convenient (and accurate) as well I think
having the smaller bag (or pinched medium bag) for coordination is important as well as Jeurg mentioned ...
so my thought would be don't stress to much over getting the perfect bag size as slight adjustments can be made and in the long run the bags aren't expensive (ie. if you find that a 3.3 L bag would be perfect for you vs. pinching down a 3.5L etc.)
Post Number: 2450
|Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 03:31 am: |
Smaller bags are nice to use as well later, for coaches using ideas like hypoxia under sportspecific activities by trying to hit a certain deoxy Hb level or a certain level of TSI % ( tissue satruation )
The key is to use an individual level for interval and or strenght exercises with deoxy Hb and or TSI % so you really have a physiological information on how many reps and or how long you push a certain intervall.
In the past we used as so often time or repetitions or % of max weight as we had no other choices.
Today we actually can see intracellular what and how deep we like to deoxygenate the muscle and than we can understand why certain workouts worked incredibel in one athelet and the same workout had no positive effect in anotyher.
The reason was, that the deoxy was potentially very different despite using the same % of maximal strenght.
The same probelm we see in Max VO2 as a guide and than taking % from this maximal value.
Same picture, some react very well and other have no benefit at all.
This is, where the NIRS comes in and where we need some more datas before we understand how the bodie reacts on the "occlusion" workouts , mentioned by Misha.
The theory behind is great , the practical application was not optimal due to lack of controle on the physiological area, but now may change completely.