| Author | Message | ||||
     Echelon New member Username: Echelon Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2009 |
I did my own VO2 and lactate balance point test a few weeks ago and could use some help in figuring out what I am looking at. My scanner isn't working and I don't know how to get the printout up to my computer yet so I put it all into a spreadsheet and have attached it. My FaCT test is also attached. Thank you for all of your help. Jennisse
| ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2231 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hmm I can't open the FaCT test on my computer as it is a kind of a UNK file have to check with Herb and see how it goes. The VO2 test looks nice and now you just have to put all the ideas we discuss here together and than you can see, whether the respiratory change occurs close by the LBP. Than you know whether the rower respiration moved the performance from the boat to a slower pace. Why did you choose the 50 watt start and than at the beginning doubled it to 100 watt and therefor after you made 10 watt steps. What happened at the end with the step length. Can you summarize the protocol you did on here ? What is your VC . If I can't open just give here watt HR and lactate from the second part . The rest we have on the excel sheet. | ||||
| Echelon Junior Member Username: Echelon Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2009 |
Okay. I tried to follow the FaCT lactate test protocol but knew that 50 watts was too easy to start so I went straight to 100 and then did 10 watt jumps. I fixed the spreadsheet to indicate what I actually did - I had forgotten that I didn't enter all of the data into the Fitmate while I was doing this myself. So I have reattached the corrected spreadsheet and the FaCT test with a different format so hopefully you can open it. 3 minute steps up, recover to heart rate of 130 and then was supposed to go up heart rate 5 beats but I forgot to do that and went up 10 watts at a time instead of heart rate. I do not know my VC? I need a Spirometer to know that correct? VO2 is 49.4. Jennisse
| ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2239 Registered: 04-2006 |
I can't open the lactate values , just show here ,as suggested the watt, and HR and lactate values from the second part of the FaCT HL. The fit mate values I have been able to open. Thanks Now here as an idea. or thought What can we do with the information of the 49.4 VO2 max tested ? Use the Fit Mate to test the VC. Ask the people , where you bought it for help for that. Or get a Spiro meter like a spiro pet or a spiro meter like Koko Pro 6. They are cheap and easy to use. Now here a hint for people looking at the excel sheet. 50 % of the tested VO2 max is considered the save bet for FFA metabolisme. In that area you should find the lowest FeO2 ,( and if you as well spent money for a CO2 sensor the RQ or RER will be the lowest at that place, but unlikley 0.7 but rather arround 0.8 +. as burning FFA needs most O2 . Sometimes the steps of three minutes are too short and people have no idea, how slow you have to go to be in the FFA intensity and than they miss it. May have happend here as well , as you where simply not patient enough to go in the first test slow steps up.( most people in fact would benefit from just brisk walking uphill or even flat for FFA stimmulation. It is again not knew. The great finnish runner Pavoo Nurmi had over his winter workouts done in walking over long distances. As soon I have the LBP values we can see, how true this is. Problem: People are interested in the VO2 max or max HR or max wattage. aGAIN THIS IS GREAT IN A RACE. bUT fAct IS SUPPOSE TO FIND OUT PHYSIOLOGICAL INTENSITY ZONES. sO MAX VALUE HAVE NO VALUES AT ALL, AS WE ONLY KNOW , WHERE THE TEAM COLLAPSE . aGAIN WE LIKE TO SEE, WHERE AND HOW WE CHOOSE COMPENSATORS TO HELP LIMITERS. | ||||
| Echelon Junior Member Username: Echelon Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2009 |
Okay, I bought the machine from Brian Smallwood who bought it from you so I am asking the people I bought it from!  I will get a Spiropet...or the Koko. And I am hearing that I should have started at 50 watts and gone up 10 watts at a time for 4 or 5 minutes each step is that right? I will ask Brian if I have the CO2 sensor. Thanks, Jennisse | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2242 Registered: 04-2006 |
hmm interesting comeback. We don't really care , whether you have a Korr or New leaf and or Fit Mate.As well we don't care really where you bought it, as long you are happy with the service you are getting there. Our objective is to give as good as possible a service to our clients. So here to save you some time. There is no CO2 on the Fit Mate. There is a way of testing VC on the Fit Mate, but as we use the Koko I simply would have to go again through all the ideas and control panels, as I can't remember but Brian may have used it that way , as he has no Koko and I don't think any Spiro Meter. The disadvantage of VC on the Fit Mate is , that you really only have the VC. As well you need some plastic tubing to actually connect it. Check the diameter on the Bigger Flow meter.The other problem is , that it is not stored so you have to check carefully and wait as it lags a bit behind. Will try to find the way if Brian can't remember.There are now as well disposable masks, if people have a problem with the reusable once. They can buy their own mask cheap and can come back with their own mask, if they as well train with the Fit Mate. Remember, if you start to keep the mask on the full test, that you have the storage ability for 2000 breath so calculate the time. Than you can download a free site from Cosmed and print out all the info by moving the Fit Mate info on the lab top. Last but not least I think you have a model with a HR connected to the unit so any polar belt will work for the test. Don't forget to down load the info, as in case you overload the memory the equipment does not warn you during the test but can't store so you really loose all the data. As well check regular the O2 sensor as the one from Brian may be soon up for a change if it is not a new one. Now to the test itself on what I actually have here. No the test was perfect , as it was the first test and you have to get a feeling and a baseline for it. There is no "cookbook" at all. The ideas where simply ideas, nothing other. So if you can give us the lactate numbers as suggested we can keep going somewhat easier. You did 11 steps which is great and gives you enough points for a great discussion on the performance line.The performance line is perfect and a great base to start with. Here the performance line:  You can see even optically , that there are big gabs at the lower end of the test. Now as soon we have the lactate values we can go somewhat further with ideas.Searching for LLL and ULL if they show up , as well for the lowest FeO2 % trends. But more important we can see, whether the respiratory system is the weak link or not and where , if it is not the weak link , it starts to compensate. The main task people have, that we are still "trained" to watch for the result at the high end. Remember it is not the top we look for but the way we may go up to the top. You can see that the first point is a higher HR than expected but the second a lower than expected. Due to the big steps we have some problems to have a trend here. A suggestion after this first try is to start again by 50 but than move up to 70 90 and so on. Why : on a 10 watt step your HR increase by about 4 - 6 beats so we can "assume" that in a 20 watt step you increase by about 8- 10 beats , which are still okay . We only look for the performance line. In the second part you can move to try to use 5 +- beats steps. And you drop the first point down to 50 % performance so in your case to 90 or 110 watts. Take a watt level you used the first time up so it will help you to find the next watt value as you take a HR as the target.By 50 % you know you will be in FFA and you can see the drop in the HR trend . From there it is easy to decide the next HR levels as you can use the info from the first part and you know the linear increase, as well the recovery after the first 3 min.Please remember, no critic here just ideas open and clear. And open questions. Now here one of the open questions : I did a search on you and found a very great and nice www. site . Good work and fun to see the enthusiastic drive on the web site., As well I see, you are marked as a level II test center. So yes it is great , when we can help you to use the equipment , as good as it can deliver information, but as well it is good if you keep a critical look at FaCT as it is an ongoing process. So please invite your members to our Forum and come in with critical question. What we hope is that we all can share open ideas and progress, as we only cook all with water. I found on that search as well the group , on the You Tube, which is a certified FaCT center as well and I am surprised to see, how the use LBP and ideas of 4 mmol.So they must be knowing more info , why they believe in 4 mmol, and it would be nice to share that with us here. It would be fun if this groups, who with right may be sceptical on the FaCT idea ,come on board here for an open discussion. This is the same with the interesting group where I had some of many questions I fight since year to get clear answers. If you work with aerobic threshold and VT and what ever please share the ideas here for a great open discussion, as we all sometimes are getting blind if we are hooked on a specific idea ( Including me) so sometimes an eye opener will only improve our ideas and thoughts. Summary. 1. I will work from this side on what we would do with the data collection ( miss still the lactate infos ) and you please come up and tell us how you would use the data's based on VO2. | ||||
| Herb Board Administrator Username: Herb Post Number: 71 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here's the whole test converted to jpg so you can view it more easily. Herb  | ||||
| Hourerg Member Username: Hourerg Post Number: 13 Registered: 08-2009 |
Here is a link to an old school method to determine VC. I did something like this a while ago using (2) 3.7L jugs because my VC came out to about 5L. The link: http://www.smm.org/heart/lessons/lesson9 .htm Hope that helps. Jose | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2243 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hey , this is fun an a nice way to do. Thanks so much. Interesting is , that the material used after about 5 test is the same price as a Spirometer Koko or at least close to. But the whole idea gives a great understanding and back to the root often is a great help of understanding concepts. | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2244 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo Jennise wow great job and I will give you some small hints how you can get this even better as well this is a great test to show possible weakness and strenght. Will be back later as a bussy day starts here in 2 min . juerg | ||||
| Echelon Junior Member Username: Echelon Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2009 |
Juerg, thank you very much for your help and time. Yes, I am level 2 certified center and would love to be a Level 3 at some point sooner rather than later. I am very enthusiastic and have several athletes that are keeping me very critical - not that I am not already but their questions that I can't answer become the questions that I am asking here. So again, thank you for all of your help - I understand and highly respect that this is an ongoing process with FaCT. jennisse | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2248 Registered: 04-2006 |
Now here some small ideas on the changes you can try in your next test. 1. As you have the fit mate now use it so, that you take 1 min average infos , so on the paper print out you have it very easy to go through the numbers. Here how it could look like:  Now you can extract the important numbers easy and just move it into the FaCT soft ware. Make a line every 3 minute and or after what ever time you decided to change the wattage ( steps.) The same you do for the second party of the test. If you like you can even give the load ( wattage in at any step you do during the test. And you can write on this sheet as well the lactate values and you have a very easy summary. 2. look at the second part of the test exactly how you started this questions": Take the bath tube. Now as closer you will approach the LBP as harder it will be to see fast changes. Example: 3 liter water can go in and 3 liter of water will go out = LBP so now you overflood the bathtub , by opening the water tap to 5 liter and only 3 liter go out , your bath tub will fill up and overflow. If exactly at the moment , where it is completely full you would be able to turn it down to 3 liter you would have always a perfect full bath tub. = LBP Problem : we do not really know , how much is going out till to the moment where we find LBP. So it is really a try and error game. Now here comes the problem with dropping too low with the lactate values. Example: You overshoot as in our example with filling up with 5 liter / min but only 3 l/min can go out. Now you overflow and you have a mess in the bathroom. As longer you let it overflow ,as bigger the mess. Now when you come back into the bathroom, you may decide to shut the inflow completely down. As no water is coming in anymore as better you have the time to move the overflow water back into the bathtub and into the proper outflow ( system )but, if you are not able to "refuel" mob up the mess in the same time and amount,as the water ( 3 l/min ) goes out it will create a situation, where you mob up in the system ( bathrooms) but as well the level in the tub is dropping.If now there is very blittle "mess " left and the speed you clean up from outside and moving back into the bath tub is less than three liter you will now see a drop in waterlevel in the bathtub, decpite the fact , that you still have some little mess left. Now suddently you see the water level in the bath tub too low and you open it again but as you still don't know how much is going out you open by 4 liter. This would really be more inflow than outflow , but will not create immediatly a mess, as you have space left in the tube as the level is not just full but half empty again. So despite the fact you are above LBP you don't see immediatly a trend in lactate increase. Now this lag is "tricky " when you are getting very close to LBP.But it could as well be it is just slightly above. If the bathtub is just perfect full and you add the new level and it is close to LBP you may have an initial overflow before it just may be still dropping or you may not see a clear increase in the 3 minutes and if you would wait one more minute you would see the trend. So back to your test ( second half ) You have to try to make a sample every three minutes in the second part as well, but keep the same wattage for the following minute, till you have the result. So the reading is actually after 3 min and if you wait one more minute and the 3 minute reading is dropping clear you know that it dropped a bit further in the min you where waiting. So clear trend of dropping ( More than 0.4-0.5 mmol/L you go to the next step ( new HR target) again after 3 min you take a sample and again wait 1 min till result. Now the result may be only 0.3 mmol/ difference. Now you take immediatly another sample and go immediatly up to the next target now. The reading ( secon reading on the same level will give you the real trend level. Now if you have a fit mate you have it much easier for this decision and a big help. Look during the additional minute on the HR and the FeO2 % trend. If HR drops in this additional minute and FeO2 % is stable or drops as well you are pretty sure the lactate will drop as well. Lower HR = lower CO and lower FeO2 % means using more O2 which can be used to re-use lactate. If the trend in that minute ,you wait, shows an increase in HR = possibly an increase in CO = more O2 needed for cardiac system. and you see FeO2 % increase = less O2 stayed in the body = high chance the lactate will be stable and or increase. After a few tests you will get pretty good in this observation and can start to predict what is going on. Now that's where the fun starts. If you see an increase in FeO2 % tell your client to try to breath deeper and slower for 1 - 2 min.( if possible ) Check the trend in FeO2 % and RF and than take a lactate and tell us what happened. You can add that at the end of a test, just after you found LBP without stopping the test. We will explain later , what you can get out of that simple fun part at the end. Summary : Great test , great result. The 2.5 mmol lactate possibly a bad reading . Can be avoided by the idea I just explained : wait 1 min and see the result , and in the 2.5 mmol case take immediatly an other sample and you have the correction , as you may had not optimal blood in the strip or you squeezed , or what ever sometimes can happen. Take that first test as a base line and than develop an individual protocol now for you. Example . 50 / 70 / 90 watt and so on. than drop to 50 % watt for the first step in the second part and don't worry yet about the HR as it may drop or not. As you wait after 3 min for the first reading you see the trend in the following minute. Now once you have the reading after three minutes (and we take your case with an even higher lactate than at the end your first part ) you are not in a hurry at all and stay for another 1- 2 minute on that 50 % level and make another sample but look what happend with the HR. Now here it will be three options 1. The HR dropped down to the same level as in the first part. So very easy , as you choose a HR you like, and you know immediatly the watt to it. Now CAREFULLY NOW, AS THAT MEANS EXTREM GREAT RECOVERY FROM WHAT EVER SYSTEMS OR NOT VERY HARD PUSH IN THE FIRST PART. sO LACTATE MAY DROP VERY FAST . So look at the maximal Lactate at the end, and if it was only 3 - 4 mmmo; you maY have to get faster up with the HR than only 5 beats otherwise bathtub may empty as well. 2. HR stays very high and lactate as well. Easy as well as you have a slow responder and lot's of time to keep the same level at the beginning and just observe trend and decide the next sample taking based on HR and FeO2 % trend. 3. HR does not drop but lactate drops fast. Now without fit mate you need just some practice and you go as well 50 % first and than decide and make a few time try and error. Rather stay higher, than dropping, as if you go immediatly back above LBP you just start again with dropping slightly ( can play with numbers later.) So that's for the moment. Small homework for you. Check the excel sheet and see, as I have as well 190 watts on the sheet and my VE on your sheet tells me 105 l/min with a RF of 53 = TV 2.0 Now all reader check her respiratory behaviour . Two very clear changes on two levels. Try to think why and what may have happened there. Check as well the TV which is VE/RF = TV | ||||
| Echelon Junior Member Username: Echelon Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2009 |
Okay, this is fabulous. Thank you, Juerg. I have to think about this and play. Then think some more and play some more.....and then I will be back with thoughts and questions. Jennisse | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2249 Registered: 04-2006 |
Ha ha great, don't worry , as there are always new questions for all of us. So even if you think it is a " stupid" question please come back. We are all the same , we are afraid to ask clear questions and many readers are happy if questions come in, which seem "stupid" but this questions are often the once, who give the most info's, as we have often problem to give a clear answer. Here a short idea on what we are working on. a) lactate gives a very interesting pattern in the second part of the test. Here a print from a study from Switzerland 2009 , where they come up with this picture.  This after over 20 years denying this idea. So great to see, that a group starts to make them self a name . So here our latest trend in the second part and it looks intriguing to say the least. In all cases, where we believe the LBP is created by a cardiac limitation the CCT information in the second part looks something like that .  Where was possibly the LBP in lactate values in this person ? Now here is a field , somebody could pick up for a master thesis. Next step now is to see, whether we see a similar pattern in the recovery part in respiratory limitations and last but not least in O2 Hb and O2 Mb limitation with teh PorteMon. The final "dream" would be to use the tredns from teh different systems and find it this way. So LBP test to assess the area of the limitation and than confirmation of the system , which may create this limitation by really looking closer at that system. Than start to develop intensity ideas and see , how they may be able to influence changes in functional and long term structural developpment. If we can do that , than we are where we hope. Any cell structure can be developped if properly "stressed" to do that we need to know the stressor ( H. Selye) and once we are able to do that and we can target the weak area and control the reaction we may be able to re- build patients after a heart attack properly and successfull with the problem of haviung the patient involved in the therapy schedule. From here the step to high performance is logic but will be hard to do, as tradition will be the major stumbling block , incuding in Pro sport the Sponsores, as they are only our for fast results as there is a direct link between PR and result. Either you need a winner or get caught as a "cheater', I an y case the PR is great as it is talked about. Best example Festina and the increase in sales after the scandal and Phonak . Both companies are well know thanks to ????? Some "dark " thoughts to a bright field. There are different ways to try to improve your personal best. The ideas we show here may be one possible idea. | ||||
| Art_k82 Senior Member Username: Art_k82 Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2009 |
Given CCT = LVET x HR, After the initial ramp up, CCT keeps dropping, despite the fact that HR increases. Therefore, it must mean that LVET is shortening. At about HR = 154, CCT suddenly jumps upward. If CCT jumps upward, and HR is increasing, then either three things could happen to LVET: 1) LVET could drop slightly (by less), but the increasing effect of HR is greater than the drop on LVET, which causes CCT to increase. 2) LVET stays the same (plateaus), which would indicate that the heart's contraction time has decreased to its fastest time, and cannot decrease anymore. 3) LVET increases (this probably does not happen). I put my money on #2. But the question is why? What is so "special" about LVET? If LVET does not shorten even more, does that mean the heart has reached its fastest ability to deliver blood outside of the heart, unless HR compensates by beating faster? | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2250 Registered: 04-2006 |
Your last remarks are the key? Why doe we see and how can we or can we not influence the reaction of LVET. Does certain workouts , which may stimulate more parallel sarcomere development may have a different influence on LVET and what does a stress , which may develop serial sarcomere development influence. This is really the question may would expect Universities with big public research money have to follow closer. So as equipment like the Physio Flow are getting basic standard in Europe we may see more and more research coming out in the next few years and than have to be moved into the steam line of the coaches and athletes. The price this days for a physio flow compared with testing with echo and or MRI is so much cheaper, that the Physio Flow is moving in Europe as one of the future teaching tools for coaches and other professionals. As well the PorteMon. UBC just published a study and shows how accurate and reliable the PorteMon is and that it will be the future of many practical testing ideas. When you think , that we can see the O2 trend over a distance of 500 - 1000 m than it will be fun for us to be the first in a few weeks to test t6hem on skis and sitting in the lodge and see the Os situation as the skiers moves on the snow. The idea is less the explanation of the trend as you tried , as the fact in this case above, that the lowest point was identical with the lactate trend. Question is : Why and can this trends in combination perhaps be used to find the weakest link even different. Now here the idea: 1. Cardiac system may be the limiter. so CGM ( Noakes ) kicks in meaning, that the recruitment pattern changes ( less workers ) so more work for less workers meaning shift in ATP production meaning possible trend in lactate ( LBP ) and the CCT would back up, that it is the heart. Now if it is muscle we may have LBP from lactate and a similar trend of O2Hb and O2 Mb and this would say it is the muscle locally. If we see n ow a similar trend in VE and or FeO2 we may perhaps say it is the respiratory system in combination with lactate. So over the next 2 month I will do lot's of testing, as we have people here from South africa , sent some equipment to quebec and have some possibility as it looks with a big center in the states as well to work on this ideas by first simply assessing and collect information without any hypothesis and pressure, just researching. Will keep you updated her , as it is unfortunately very rare, that we get updates from ongoing research from our publicly sponsored Universities. | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2251 Registered: 04-2006 |
Your last remarks are the key? Why doe we see and how can we or can we not influence the reaction of LVET. Does certain workouts , which may stimulate more parallel sarcomere development may have a different influence on LVET and what does a stress , which may develop serial sarcomere development influence. This is really the question may would expect Universities with big public research money have to follow closer. So as equipment like the Physio Flow are getting basic standard in Europe we may see more and more research coming out in the next few years and than have to be moved into the steam line of the coaches and athletes. The price this days for a physio flow compared with testing with echo and or MRI is so much cheaper, that the Physio Flow is moving in Europe as one of the future teaching tools for coaches and other professionals. As well the PorteMon. UBC just published a study and shows how accurate and reliable the PorteMon is and that it will be the future of many practical testing ideas. When you think , that we can see the O2 trend over a distance of 500 - 1000 m than it will be fun for us to be the first in a few weeks to test t6hem on skis and sitting in the lodge and see the Os situation as the skiers moves on the snow. The idea is less the explanation of the trend as you tried , as the fact in this case above, that the lowest point was identical with the lactate trend. Question is : Why and can this trends in combination perhaps be used to find the weakest link even different. Now here the idea: 1. Cardiac system may be the limiter. so CGM ( Noakes ) kicks in meaning, that the recruitment pattern changes ( less workers ) so more work for less workers meaning shift in ATP production meaning possible trend in lactate ( LBP ) and the CCT would back up, that it is the heart. Now if it is muscle we may have LBP from lactate and a similar trend of O2Hb and O2 Mb and this would say it is the muscle locally. If we see n ow a similar trend in VE and or FeO2 we may perhaps say it is the respiratory system in combination with lactate. So over the next 2 month I will do lot's of testing, as we have people here from South africa , sent some equipment to quebec and have some possibility as it looks with a big center in the states as well to work on this ideas by first simply assessing and collect information without any hypothesis and pressure, just researching. Will keep you updated her , as it is unfortunately very rare, that we get updates from ongoing research from our publicly sponsored Universities. | ||||
| Echelon Member Username: Echelon Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2009 |
Okay, I have had time after the holidays to get back into this. Art, I don't understand your post - can you explain the abbreviations, please? Given CCT = LVET x HR, After the initial ramp up, CCT keeps dropping, despite the fact that HR increases. Therefore, it must mean that LVET is shortening. At about HR = 154, CCT suddenly jumps upward. If CCT jumps upward, and HR is increasing, then either three things could happen to LVET: 1) LVET could drop slightly (by less), but the increasing effect of HR is greater than the drop on LVET, which causes CCT to increase. 2) LVET stays the same (plateaus), which would indicate that the heart's contraction time has decreased to its fastest time, and cannot decrease anymore. 3) LVET increases (this probably does not happen). I put my money on #2. But the question is why? What is so "special" about LVET? If LVET does not shorten even more, does that mean the heart has reached its fastest ability to deliver blood outside of the heart, unless HR compensates by beating faster? Did you come to any conclusion about which of my systems is the weak system? Happy New Year to everyone, Jennisse | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2314 Registered: 04-2006 |
Great questions and here possibly a bad answer. LVET stands for left ventricular ejection time. It is in simple words the time , where the blood flows or get's pushed out from you left ventricle into you aorta and body system. Now here SPECULATION) over the last 11/2 year we started the habit to test lactate trends on the way up in the performance line test part, as soon we would reach clearly 30 sec CCT. Now CCT the way we use it can't be found in the literature either. It is a term like LBP ( lactate balance point) we created over 20 years back ( No validation ) smile ). So if we take 100 HR , that means we have 100 contraction per minute. Now during each systolic phase ( contraction of the ventricle) you actually have no ( or very little ) blood supply to the cardiac muscle itself. So we feed the O2 to the cardiac muscle during diastolic phase ) relaxation or filling phase of the ventricle. Now our idea is: If the HR is going up , than we as well increase the time , the heart is contracted and therefor we reduce the time where the heart can get blood to its own system. Now here the number game to make it easier to understand. If you have a HR of 100 and an LVET of 250 ms than 100 x 250 = 25 sec. where the heart is contracted and 35 sec where it gets easy O2 for its own muscle work. Now in the step test ,your HR will increase and we reach 150 HR. the LVET is perhaps still 250ms So 150 x 250 = CCT of 37.5 sec. So in that case we have lactate in the system, which by now we know , does not mean, you can't go anymore, but it means that the ATP production is partially supported by O2 independent energy supply somewhere in the working muscle area and therefor a time limitation due to the energy storage ability of glycogen. Now in many cases we see that ,as HR is going up ,the LVET is actually decreasing so by 150 HR you may have an LVET of 200 ms now so CCT is 30 sec and you just may or may not have a slightly lactate trend in the system. Now it some of the tests we did with stronger athletes, we see LVET of below 150ms, so you can make the math and see , that by 150 ms LVET you could afford a 200 HR to stay by 30 sec. . The short time of the LVET often moves together with the increase in EF % so it may be that the actual contraction force is much higher if LVET is lower, as the same amount of blood is getting pushed out in a shorter time. This would produce a different stimulus on the cardiac muscle , than a longer LVET, and this may be used for different ideas in developping the cardiac muscle ( Remodelling of the cardiac muscle.) Now very interesting is, that different sports ( activity ) seem to create different LVET respond. I have a client , who has a very good and low LVET in running but a very small SV and the echo shows a very small heart but very thick muscle walls. This is the picture of a typical "pressure" stress pump and with this comes with aging the risk of an increase in SVR and a higher blood pressure, despite a healthy person. So we try now to "remodel" this heart in the way that we surge for a sport ( and found it in biking ) where he has a very slow LVET and a problem to move the HR up due possibly the CCT. ( i am am similar with the difference that my SV is much bigger now.) In short . In this case we make a cardiac training on the bike by stimulating the muscle to be a "volume " pump , challenging the serial sarcomere development of the cardiac muscle and in an other case,.where we may have a big SV and a long LVET we may go and look for an activity , where we produce a "pressure " pump effect to reduce the LVET and strengthen the cardiac muscle on the left side. I know that sounds crazy but it works as we see in one year case studies. Why should we not be able to train the cardiac muscles. There are many studies out , who show big and long LVET in cyclist and short LVET and hypertrophic left ventricle with small SV in weight lifters. So it is all out there, just nobody uses the info and the technology to supervise this trainings. That's why a drop in HR in an interval session does not automatically indicates a great recovery of the cardiac system, it only show a small picture as we discussed before and it is a very limited help to plan intervals at all. We need more info like O2 Hb refuelling and changes in parameter like LVET and SV and EF % before we simply plan on one single biomarker. This is what FaCT is all about , not performance assessment but weak link or team member assessment and than see, how we can establish stimulation for the weak link to improve in one or the other directions. Same is for teh respiration of coordination, as you may have to work on RPM on the bike instead of strength so can you do in respiration or cardiac assessment. Problem. Any current test system , does not come even close on this ideas nor are coaches interested in working on this , as it is easier as so often discussed to hammer in your computer a max value and push the % button and out you spit the cook book with very limited success for health and even performance improvement. That's where there is the difference between coaching and coaching. Why would you need a advice from a Pro when you can do all teh stuff on your own. Here a nice discussion on that from Cycling news. "I am looking for some feedback, on what would be the best fitness test to have done. A VO2 max test or Lactate Threshold test. Any imput would be appreciated. It depends very much on what you expect to do with the results. Some lab tests are nice, but can be a waste of money, which, depending on what you are trying to achieve, might be better saved up to buy a power meter so you can test and monitor every time you hop on your bike. Far more practical and superior than doing 2 or 3 labs tests per year. But you don't need to do either to assess fitness changes. Go find a hill to ride up and time yourself: And one can set HR training zones quite easily if you know your max HR or your average HR from a time trial effort. That costs nothing as well. If you do use a power meter, then there are a range of very useful tests you can perform for yourself. | ||||
| Echelon Member Username: Echelon Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2009 |
Okay, I understand all of this. thank you so much for the time it took to write all of that out. I am very appreciative for this resource. I did two tests on two different athletes this past weekend and held the wattage for the additional minute until I got a lactate reading - it makes a lot more sense to hold and see the trend than to guess beforehand. Perhaps you guess wrong and move in the wrong direction if you move before you have the reading? That was very helpful advice. The first test, I lost all of the data because I started with a strong cyclist at 50 watts so I exceeded the 2000 breath limit of the FitPro because the test was longer than an hour. Based on that, I now think that it doesn't make sense to start a very fit cyclist with a wattage threshold of around 200 watts at 50 watts. But for a less fit cyclist, it might make good sense...I think it is smart to start the test at a low enough wattage to allow them to warm up all of the systems, but do not start it too low as it is really not doing anything for a fit cyclist to be at too low of a wattage and as you will have to stop the test and restart the machine at about 55 minutes - which depending on where you are in the process, may not be a good time or you may forget like I did and have to reboot? I think though, if you do restart the machine, perhaps when the computer is down, they can take off the mask, perhaps then is a good time to tell your athlete to drink as dehydration can affect the athlete and not drinking for over an hour might affect some athletes more than others. Do you agree? I am not sure exactly what I might be missing though to stop the test just as I am watching for the lactate balance point and testing blood and then having to restart the machine....I wonder if that is the best time to do it or if there is another time that would be better. Anyone else have a different system that works? Very disappointing that I lost all of that data from that athlete but I think we got a better lactate test than we usually did so not all was lost. And we will test again before the 12-hour race that we are both doing. I have the second athletes lactate and VO2. I am working on getting the software activated so I can post it here for everyone to look at. I really like the idea that I am looking to determine the weak link. I know what tests I can perform on myself and my athletes if I am looking for performance assessments, as well. I think having both is good. But I am still not sure what I am looking at with all of this data. I am looking for changes in the data. But what changes exactly and what do those changes mean? How do I determine where the athlete is utilizing free fatty acids mostly - where is the line between efficiency in fuel consumption and speed for faster, harder efforts? How do I look at the numbers and know what I am looking at so I can determine the weakest link? I am sure this isn't an easy answer and it will come over time and with more research. I am not looking for the turn key answer. I am really fascinated and willing to put in the work to be a good guide to my athletes. Thank you, Jennisse | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2365 Registered: 04-2006 |
Wowww great job and I like to try to help with my "swenglish" here as good as possible and step by step. Not as a PR but it is a PR. Your summary pretty much explains , why Dr. A. Sellars has developed this FaCT Level courses.And they are in englsih Smile ) I am always amazed how many regular readers really pick up the ideas open and fast.But it is a lot of information and the problem is , that it is not just new information , but often in contradiction with what you may just have learned in a coaching clinic or at the university you where. So you not just deal with news, but with " bad news" as you have to start to select the two ideas and information's you have and which one can you use and which one can be closer to the possible "truth" or reality. I remember over 20 years back ,when we introduced the idea, that lactate can only be used as a trend info. wowww what a mess we created and it ended up in Switzerland in a discussion with lawyers . FaCT Switzerland versus a big institution.I once in a while read the outcome and have to smile. ( Not a lot of smiling in the group , who pushed to develop FaCT Switzerland at all )( Thanks Andras for the fight you put up and the head ache for our idea , I hope the hairs are growing back , perhaps grey or silver now but nevertheless covering up some wrinkles in your brain ) Nevertheless I can see why there are always after getting some answers more question coming up. Welcome in teh crazy FaCT brain. I am more confused often than I can admit as any new idea or test result has to be reassessed and anytime the result is way off what we learn and what we explain we have an internal fight to see, what is going on. As the equipment is developping in a rapid way we often are lagging behind the information's we now can gather. This is why I believe there is a very new generation of coaches and center coming up , which will be able to compete easy with traditional slow moving institution, where the machinery of red tape and discussion takes for ever to make a decision what and when to buy certain new equipments. Okay end philosophy here and go to work. I will start with some handling ideas of the testing. 1. No keep starting slow . Example : Good athelet but not a Pro start ratio of the body weight in Kg. Example 74 kg heavy client. Start by 70 or 80 watts. Now go up by 20 watt. This will give you steps . if he is good up to let's go extreme 380 watts. so 15 steps 3 min duration = 45 min. Average Respiration rate of 40 ( which is high ) = 1800 RR. Now this would be a very long test. So take the lactate and run the first 2 lactate trend steps still in the same setting = 51 minute. Now as you wait the minute for the lactate result. Stop the Fit Mate, and recalibrate in that minute and you have no loss and all the info. This if you are interested in the recovery part of the test and the respiratory system as well. If you are only looking for trend in the respiratory system , where it drops of the line and whether it could be the limiter or the compensator. than just finish the VO2 part as you take the first lactate sample. Now here the next small idea. As you know by now, the HR as well as the VO2 will increase from a certain moment on linear .( LLL or lower linear limit is , where this starts. Now as you go up you will see during the test where this is the case. Here a number example: 50 watt 98 70watt 101 90 watt 105 110 watt 116 130 watt 125 150 watt 134 What will be the 170 watt HR most likely ? Now you as well can see that with the VO2 and predict the increase in VO2 for a while as it is as well linear. Now here some "tricks". If you have a Polar watch with the ability to do a Fit test and an own zone test than you have some nice help. a) Own zone test will give you a close idea , where the LLL may be +- some beats, so if the Own zone is by 115 . than you start with a HR or watt level around 100 + or ( about 15 beats below Own zone. Once you hit own zone or HRV you will likely see a linear increase in HR for a while. If the increase from one step to the other is more than 8 beats make smaller steps. Reason . You are HRV 112 and you increase as in the above example above 10 beats per step you have only 9 steps left to 200 HR . so 27 minutes and no problem to run all on the same fit mate idea. Why Fit tests. The fit test number represents the possible VO2 max number. You will be surprised how close this number often is with what you test in VO2 on the equipment. You may be so often so close, that you wonder, why you actually need a VO2 equipment. Well that's why we use a Fit Mate , as we can see more than VO2 ( RF TV FeO2 and VE ) which are needed to assess the respiratory system. Now back to the Fit test . If the number is 49 you have a great idea, where the VO2 will heading to. Now during the test as you see the increase in HR you will soon see and be able to predict the increase in VO2 per step and you can estimate how many more steps will be coming up +_. This will help you to make early in the test the decision to skip one step and move up by 40 watt once or twice, if you underestimated the person. It is better to skip at the middle of the test , than starting too fast. Low intensity give you lot's of info , middle intensities little and the max intensity you are not even interested in besides bragging rights if VO2 / kg is high or frustration of the client if it turns out low. Summary . Start low. check HR and VO2 trend. use HRV or won zone to be ready to predict the trend and now estimate how many more steps you likely will be able to do. Skip in the middle one or the other step to not run out of time. If full test with all data collection recalibrate after 1 or 2 steps into the second part. This as a first part of your great questions and I will come back later to show you what you can do with the data collection as it is very easy to use. Perhaps last point: Why not recalibrate after the first part ( Performance line ) ? Reason. You miss the actual; recovery reaction than as you like to see, how as the HR drops and the watt drops the respiratory system reacts. Is the respiratory frequency dropping but the TV stays up. or is the frequency staying up but the TV drops , What is the reaction of that in connection with FeO2 %. This will give you some indication , how the body reacts with the accumulated H + and how the body is for the moment cooping with getting ride of CO2 . ( over RF or over TV.) Later as you specifically look at the respiratory system you can do that in workouts by assessing the FeO2 reaction n an interval workout and see, what happens when you force a fast RF or a deep TV and how that influences FeO2 % and for us how it influences O2 Hb refuelling. Remember that there is no O2 deficit. There is only the need to refuel which creates the famous name as John brought it up of EPOC. = extended post exercise oxygen compensation. The body really is not doing that immediately as you will see on the FeO2 % trend. first is balance acidosis over CO2, than refuelling ATP if you rest . If you keep moving than it is keeping you moving as good as possible and as low the ATP level allows you to go. You cant refuel and move intense, . Survival mode would suggest to keep the best possible movement going as the ATP has to stay on a minimal level to keep the cell activity going. This idea is used to design interval workouts. What is the goal : to improve refuelling or to improve the ability to keep going. See more questions here. | ||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 353 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks for the props again Juerg. Jennisse actually has attended some of our Certification Courses, though the last one was complicated by an overzealous border official, who forced us to provide the training via video conference. As everyone can see, Jennisse has taken steps to continue thinking about the testing, and incorporating VO2 data with a Fitmate into the Level I/II process, with some really interesting ideas being discussed. In the Level III Course we talk about the use of VO2 data and specifically Fitmate data interpretation, as we feel this unit best exemplifies an inexpensive, easy-to-use module to help look at respiratory and metabolic trends. Thanks also to Juerg for continuing to support Jennisse with your detailed advice. I have been resetting the Fitmate during testing of our High Performance athletes who are doing tests of up to 60 minutes. We do it as Juerg says, by resetting the unit after the initial step test. This way, there are two sets of data, one for the step test, and one for the recovery portion. They can be printed out together once the test is complete, and analyzed separately, or together, depending on the information you are interested in. We are just now trying to confirm some dates for some Level II/III opportunities, and hope to be able this time to see you in person Jennisse. Keep up the great work, and insightful questions. | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2367 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here back with some more ideas. FFA or what you may name STF preferred energy production. First of all it is not a clear cut "zoning" but rather a trend towards preferred FFA or glucose O2 dependent. Now if you use a VO2 equipment you hope you have direct view on FeO2 % info. So equipment have as well CO2 sensors. They use the RQ ( respiratory quotient to find this preferred energy supply ) As we discussed before 0.7 RQ ( some may use RER) would suggest that fat is the preferred energy source together with O2. 0.85 would suggest it is a mixture of FFA and glucose plus O2. 1.0 is considered glucose only and than some values above up to 1.1 +- would be considered " anaerobic " energy production or protein. If you look at VO2 test results closer you will see , that in most of the tests RQ is rarely below 0.85 or just slightly. The other part is ( and I will try to make a print on here ) the fact , that as FeO2 % drops the CO2 will change as well and go up. In any of the tests we reviewed the lowest FeO2 % was as well the lowest RQ. If you don't have a CO2 sensor you just simply have no actual number but as the values are anyway in and around 0.85 you know you have at that moment a mix energy supply . Now how you look for that in the Fit Mate print. Depending how you store the numbers ( breath by breath or every 15 sec or every min. ) you can see the FeO2 in the excel sheet or in the printout directly from the Fit Mate. If you print it out you better set the Fit Mate data collection on 1 minute otherwise you need a toilet paper role for all the info. Disadvantage is , that you have the average over 1 min and not closer. But again you don't make a research but a real test. Now check for the lowest FeO2 % . If you start out slow enough you will see higher FeO2 % at the start and than they slowly drop and than stabilize and than start climbing. Now you take the lowest FeO2 % level but assess critically . As we have only 3 min steps you may never see real trend in FeO2 % besides gradually climbing. If you don't have a Physio Flow and NIRS you are still a bit lost. What you can do now is to take the respiration rate and the VE. If you take only respiration rate as you may have no Fit Mate you sometimes can see a trend. ( if the person is not respiratorically trained ) . You will see 2 trends in fact , where the respiration rate is increasing .In your case it was by 124 and by 162. The first one 124 HR is an indication , that you may have switched from preferring FFA to glucose. resp tried to stay on FFA. FFA needs more O2 to create ATP. So you will try to increase the O2 delivery by either breathing faster and or deeper. If there is no trend in RF look , if you have the VE , where there is the first increase in TV. The second time in your case by 162 you switch possibly to a higher pCO2 and you increase respiration there. This is as well , where you may see a plateau and or even a drop in TV if the respiratory system may be the limitation. In your case LBP was clear before that and when you check your TV you see that you still increased possibly after LBP HR. This would suggest , that your limitation is the cardiac system or the muscular system or the transportation system. The limitation of the transportation system can a little bit watch by the FeO2 % levels. If you have levels all the time above 17 % you wonder why you can't drop lower and it may sometimes be a low red blood cell situation. or some respiratory problem. To rule that out you bike and simply force yourself to breath very slow and deep . If the FeO2 % drops clear it is more likely your respiratory system as the PO2 in the lungs just is to low. 9 Big VC and low TV ) Check that through and come back if there are more questions. | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2369 Registered: 04-2006 |
Now here some closer thoughts on your question on the Fit Mate data collection and what to do. 1. VO2 max / if you are working with traditional ideas you need a calculator and you can design now all the zones based on VO2 max by looking at the HR at this VO2 max numbers. 2.If you go more towards FaCT ideas you can use the VO2 number for reassessing in a few eeks. What you like to see is not actually an increase in VO2 max but rather a drop in VO2 at the same given physical performance ( watt ) Example : You had a VO2 of 36 by LBP and 180 watt \ Now after a specific workout you where hoping it may improve the performance you like to see by 36 VO2 perhaps 205 watt and this may still be the LBP. Problem . If this is the case than you know , that the workouts you did improved your performance. You may not know what systems actually improved, but as we are successful we often don't care. Bigger problem is, if the result is worse. You know that you worked out but you as in the positive outcome don't know why you did not improved. Did you simply overloaded the weakest link and it collapsed even more or did you not stimulated any of the system needed to improved your planned idea. What do we use from the Fit Mate info additional . It is actually an assessment of your respiratory system. What you really test is : How much air do you move at what intensity ( VE in l / min How much O2 you "keep " in your body. Now as we know by now the O2 you "keep " in your body , or better use in your body is not ( Not ) really the VO2 max as per definition VO2 is CO x(a-v) O2 difference. And as so many times on here we have to understand , that with any of the actual VO2 tests you only test teh second part of this idea the (a-v) O2 difference and this only indirectly by assessing how much O2 is going in and how much O2 is coming out. FeO2 %. As you can see the CO2 is nowhere in this equation at all. Unfortunately the CO ( cardiac out put is nowhere either. You can best see that , that you can run most of the equipments without having any info on HR at all and you still get your VO2 max test done. Some equipment just need for what ever reason the connection from the HR to run but not because the HR is a part of the needed info to give you the VO2 readings. It is just to give you a HR at a given VO2 level so you can transform the VO2 result into a usable HR number if you make a training plan. So what we look now is the developpment of VE and the parts contributing to VE. VE = RF ( respiratory frequency ) x TV ). That means, that VE can go up by different causes. a) Increase of RF but keeping the same TV b) increase relative extreme RF and dropping TV c) keep respiratory frequency and increase TV d) increase TV and RF e) drop respiratory frequency and increase TV extreme. The first you look at a client is, what the different changes as outlined above may change FeO2 % and if it changes in what direction. Now remember:  Now you look at the performance line of respiration. The performance is traditionally tested in respiration as the VE. Problem like in CO ( cardiac ), is and as well as in VO2 max , is , that VE is the result of two team members . As mentioned the RF and the TV. In any case ( with very rare exemptions) VE will always increase in a step test we as coaches normally do with healthy people. But just because VE is increasing does not mean it is not a limitation. HR as well is increasing and CO is as well increasing. What you look at is , how the VE is increasing . Example : You have in not respiratorically trained athletes, ( which are still many out there due to traditional thinking ) often 2 relative clear increase in VT. and early one, which some people would name AT and a later one which some people would name AeT. They than argue that these two changes are identical wit as mentioned AT and AeT or some use the word VT ( ventilatory threshold. They are exactly that VT and nothing others. They can but are not be identical or close to AT and AeT from the classical ideas or in FaCT could be close to LBP. That's the case, if the respiratory system is the weak link. Now because the traditional school only looks at VE and not what creates VE they often miss the point. If the respiratory system is the limiter than despite that VE is increasing we see actually a drop in one of the factores for VE . Either RF or TV drops. This already can give you some more indication what is going on . We will come to that in the next thread. have a great day Time for work. If you take the picture you see, the performance has to drop. So VE normally will go up but either RF or TV will drop. | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2370 Registered: 04-2006 |
Okay here an example, where the respiratory system unlikely is the limitation. He is increasing his VE as you can see ( TAV) but his TV does not drop either and his RF increases slightly but only at the end, where he most likely has to get rid of CO2. By keeping his TV and his RF stable he has very little change in VO2 Here the FaCT printouts.   | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2372 Registered: 04-2006 |
Next up some thoughts on the interpretation in the Fit Mate data collection. As discussed: we have as a basic information two possible response in clients. 1. The client reacts clear over RF changes. 2. The client reacts clear over TV changes. Now in this cases you have a "clear " information. This is always the dream and than it is easy. In many cases we may see a combination. The first "VT" or first change in VE is often not that clear in RF. Reason : Many clients will increase gradually RF but if you than look at TV you can see that they as well increase gradually TV. The second "VT" is often easier to find. Many clients now will not be able to increase TV anymore but clearly increase RF. It seems to make sens. At the beginning you can increase easy two area with RF ( coordination ) not at its limit and as well depth of breathing not at it limit . So it would make sense to just work your way up in both to the most economically level. There may be some other reasons. Speculation. As we start to compare trend in respiration changes and trend in intracellular O2 , we see in a case study an interesting pattern. If we start the testing slow enough so that O2 Hb actually is increasing from the base line we can see that at the highest level of the O2 Hb situation there is as we increase the steps a steady increase in TV and RF. Once we reach the top of O2 Hb and it starts dropping we see a stable TV but an additional increase in RF( With exception when we try to overrule it. Now if we let " nature " decide we see at that moment an increase in FeO2 %. If we overrule it the FeO2 % can drop. Now interesting is, that if I overrule it the FeO2 % drops but the O2 Hb intracellular does not increase, in fact it has rather a trend of dropping. ( Who uses the additional O2 if not the muscle.. If I do the opposite and hyper ventilate ( Hypocapnic ) the FeO2 % increases but the O2 Hb as well. Hmmm see I told you many more questions. So over last night I started some major search for studies done in that direction. No success yet. But I found some additional studies , who discuss the drive for respiration . The discussion is : Is it really CO2 , who drives respiration of perhaps Hypoxia. We know , that if you go hard and increase H+ situation you seem to breath much faster as a compensation to try to get ride of the H+ ( buffer pH ) . We know as well that going into altitude increases RF but there is no increase in the night of CO2 . Perhaps instead of "fighting " between CO2 and hypoxia there is the possibility , that both are right and it depends on the situation where the body makes a decision to increase RF to "survive. Now here the FaCT speculation on what we may see in our testing . If we start slow enough so that O2 Hb can increase we have much more O2 intracellular , which invites the opportunity to use FFA and O2 as the source of ATP production. As we keep going we will take more and more O2 and if the intensity is increasing we may start to get into some delivery problem for the needed ATP and FFA and O2 are just not efficient enough as there is a possible drop of O2 intracellular. Now we have to possibilities. 1. Give up the ATP production over mainly FFA and add the easier and faster ATP production over O2 and glucose. 2. Or try to hang on for a bit longer top spare glucose, by trying to move more O2 to the working area. Meaning I have to breath deeper or perhaps faster with the same TV and I may have to increase a bit the HR to pump more blood ( increase CO.Here I may see either an increase in SV if possible or an increase in HR. The SV may increase over EF as the EDV is optimal or it may increase over EDV if still possible. Or it increases over HR as the SV is already at its limit. So the drive here to change RF may come over a relative Hypoxia to the reached baseline. The second change in RF may be over increase in CO2 as we shift ATP production from O2 dependent ( glucose ) to O2 independent glucose ) And the CO2 level may increase in a way , that the priority is not anymore O2 delivery but getting rid of CO2 to avoid to early high H+ concentration. So if the respiratory system may be the limiter, than we would as well see at the same time and increase in lactate. For many this may sound confusing , but if you start thinking more from the direction of "survival" rather than watt wattage we push you suddenly get many answers. Once you see this connections you can see, why we believe that the different trends we see in respiration reactions alone can give us many answer on how this clients body reacts. Now you add information on the cardiac reactions and you can see, why a physical performance really is just simply the end result of many different ways the body tries to cope and generate the wattage performance we try to achieve and there are many many different ways how the body can do that, depending on the structural and functional situation of this clients physiological systems. This than makes the "cooking" of the dinner so much more fun , than just using the franchise idea to develop the same hamburger all over the world. | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2373 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here fro another side looking at respiration . CYCLING PERFORMANCE TIPS Breathing for Highly Trained Athletes Air from your surroundings is brought into the lungs during pulmonary ventilation. After being adequately warmed and moistened in the upper ariways (nasal passages, trachea, and bronchii) it ultimately moves through the bronchioles and alveolar ducts to the alveoli where gas exchange occurs - oxygen diffusing across the alveolar lining nto the blood and carbon dioxide out into the alveoli. The diaphragm muscle makes an airtight separation between the abdominal and thoracic cavities. During inspiration it flattens, increasing the space (and negative pressure relative to the atmosphere) in the thoracic cavity while decreasing the volume of the abdominal cavity (unless the abdominal muscle relax to offset this effect). During exercise, the intercostal muscles and other thoracic wall muscles (the accessory muscles of respiration) contract to aid the expansion (and increase the negative pressure) in the thoracic cavity. During expiration the opposite occurs in the diaphragm and accessory respiratory muscles, the thoracic cavity decreases in size, and air flows out of the lungs. With exercise conditioning, you will increase the amount of air that is regularly brought into the lungs each minute, and thus the amount of oxygen that can be extracted and delivered by the heart and vascular system to the exercising muscles. Along with the changes in the capillaries at the muscle cell level, this training effect allows you to ride longer and stronger without becoming anaerobic in your metabolism. RESPIRATORY MUSCLE TRAINING Would specific respiratory muscle training help the performance of trained, elite athletes?? Let’s see what the literature has to say. So what can we conclude from these studies? Inspiratory muscle fatigue does occur with prolonged high intensity exercise and can be delayed by specific inspiratory muscle training (IMT). There is controversy as to whether a normal training regimen adequately trains respiratory muscles to meet the needs of the activity for which the athlete is training. This includes meeting the oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange requirements of the endranece athlete’s cardiovascular system, by providing adequate ambient air to the alveoli, as well as by decreasing lactic acid production from the repiratory muscles themselves for the appropriate level of respiratory activity. The muscular capacity for pulmonary ventilation MAY limit physical performance in the highly trained athletes. Preliminary research has demonstrated that inspiratory muscle training improves performance in highly trained rowers by some 2% more than a placebo group. Further studies should help to clarify whether specific respiratory training may improve the performance of the elite endurance athlete. WHAT CAN YOU DO? First, practice taking a deep breath. Typically during a normal breath we use only 10 to 15% of our lungs. And during exercise, we increase the rate, not the depth of our breathing. Although deep breathing is more work and uses a bit more energy, the pay off can be that 1 - 2% edge in a competitive situation. Here's 4 ways to make it happen: Exhale more completely. If you exhale more completely, it is easier to take a deep breath. The usual rhythm is exhale to a count of 3 followed by inhaling to a count of 2. Belly breathe. As you concentrate on deep breathing, you will push your diaphragm down and thus the abdominal contents out. If you are doing it correctly, your abs will expand more than your chest. Widen your hand postion. A 2 cm wider hand postion will open up your chest and decrease the difficulty of drawing in a deep breath. Synchronize your breathing. Try to synchronize your respiratory rhythm to that of your pedal cadence. Remember the 3:2 ratio of exhale to inhale. However a variation of pursed lip breathing focuses on the rhythm of respiration. Ian Jackson has developed a program, BreathPlay, which teaches skills in controlling ones expiration (and as a result inspiration) of air. He notes that ", athletes discover that pushing air out is a much more efficient way of meeting oxygen demands than sucking air in. They also discover how the active outbreath can bring powerful precision to any movement. The BreathPlay paradigm advocates using the active outbreath to setup a spinal stretch which is then released with the passive inbreath." It taps into the power of both "focus" and "hypnotherapy" to achieve performance gains. PURSED LIP BREATHING Does pursed lip breathing provide an advantage by creating a back pressure to keep the collapsing airways open? According to Frand Day MD (fday@powercranks.com) "Back pressure to keep the airways open on exhalation is really only necessary in seriously diseased lungs (such as seen in intensive care units). This is not normally necessary in athletes whose lungs are functioning normally (asthma attacks aside, where purse lips breathing is of littlebenefit). Moving air in and out of the lungs is a simple matter of physics. The volume of air moved depends upon the anatomy of the airways and the delta P (pressure) between the alveoli and the outside. On inhalation the expanding chest tends to open the airways, somewhat reducing the delta p necessary to move the required amount of air but exhalation tends to close the airways, requiring a higher delta p, but pursing the lips does nothing to change the required delta p if the lungs have normal amounts of elastic supportive tissue that normally keeps the airways open. As stated before, this increased back pressure is most useful is seriously diseased lungs and I am not aware of any data to show it useful in normal athletes." DECREASED LUNG CAPACITY WITH ENDURANCE EVENTS A recent report indicated that lung function tests of endurance athletes during "ultra" marathon sports events has indicated a progressive decrease in lung volume and expiration rates of between 5% and 20% ,commonly indicative of asthma related disease. These results were noted in various sports events including canoeing, running, skiing and cycling. It was postulated that these athletes exhibited symptoms of exercise induced asthma. Does exercise cause spasm in the lung airways in all athletes, not just asthmatics?? There is some evidence that endurance athletes may become sensitized to allergens (proteins that cam bring on an asthma attack) and other environmental toxins the longer they are involved in their sport. This may be why such a high percentage of elite athletes are on medications for "exercise induced asthma". But with exercise induced asthma (which is the same as any other asthma), vital capacity diminishes with even a few minutes of beginning easy exercise. In ultra endurance athletes, there is most likely another factor (something that would occur in everyone such as fatique or dehydration) causing lower lung volumes and muscular efficiency that slowly evolves as exercise continues. This still to be identified factor,not asthma, reduces vital capacity if the event was long enough and becomes the most logical reason why such a high percentage would show reduced lung capacity. | ||||
| Art_k82 Senior Member Username: Art_k82 Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2009 |
Jennisse, Did you end up getting the New Leaf metabolic cart? I too had the opportunity to buy a used one that was very competitively priced. However, I passed up on the opportunity, because the system does not provide the FeO2 measure. Of course, there is a formula to calculate FeO2, but I am most interested in the FeO2 measure during the workout. What version is your New Leaf cart? And, does it have FeO2? The one I was offered was made in 2006 and at that time, they did not have that functionality. Happy training | ||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2494 Registered: 04-2006 |
Art, check in this thread the second post and you see. what kind of equipment Jennisse has . |
VO2 numbers from printout Jennisse 12-01-09
FaCT test 12-01-09 Jennisse