Post Number: 287
|Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 12:48 pm: |
Hmm I possibly made a wrong conclusion (as often ).
Here the thoughts:
You bike 200 wattage and your VO2 is 30
$ weeks later you bike 200 wattage and your VO2 is 25.
One of the possible conclusion could be, that he needs now only 25 VO2 to achieve 200 wattage.
meaning he is or may be more efficient.
So as a beginner he needs less muscles to stabilize his body and with the improvement technique he needs less of this stabilization work. There for less need for O2 and therefor lower VO2.
Does that sound logic ? Remember you have 2 main reason for changes in VO2 .
Delivery on the one side ( HMV / TAV and blood picture)
and Utilization on the other side. ( Mitochondria , muscle fiber type and amount of active muscles.
So the above conclusion of improvement would be true if we look at utilization only.
And this only in a positive way.
If we look at in a negative way we could argue:
The muscle may not be able to take the O2 in and therefor even with the same amount of delivery , the utilization drops and the VO2 with it.
Is that possible : Well here the numbers.
200 watt VO2 30
1 week later
200 watt VO2 24
Woww great improvement.
No not at all felt like s.....
What did I tried.
I did one week eccentric muscle work with overload and i barely could push 200 wattage .
Repsiration rate was the same HR was close to the same there was just a difference in VO2 and FeO2 . Much higher FeO2 in the second test. What was different as well. Metabolic trend = Lactate
200 watt normally 0.8 - 1.2
1 week later after eccentric 5.2 mmol lactate . So the delivery was great , the utilization terrible , due to the catabolic stage of my msucles after eccentric.
Conclusion : If we compare VO2 values we have to compare as well , what may have caused the change . Delivery restriction or utilization restriction.
This may help us a bit further in better understanding and reacting on changes caused by workouts. I will keep you updated on an interesting "case" situation with a clear medically respiratory problem where we try to observe changes over a therapy period and see what the medication actually is doing .
Stay tuned for this numbers on the wekend.
Post Number: 39
|Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 01:09 pm: |
Are you suggesting the lower VO2 was a result of increased glucose metabolism (which requires less O2 than FFA burning)?
If so, how did the eccentric work during the week cause a greater need for glucose?
Or, was it that the muscles were so "fatigued" from the eccentric "training", you were forced to use a greater proportion of FTFb fibres than you had the week before?
As for the FeO2...if your resp rate was the same, but your VO2 dropped, it wold make sense for the FeO2 to climb...less O2 utilized=higher percentage exhaled with each breath.
In any case, it is great to show how just looking at one system does not give the whole picture, and may in fact lead to erroneous conclusions.
Keep it coming Juerg...
Also, I read an interesting article by Brink-Elfegoun arguing against the CGM (J.Applied Physiol 102:781-786, 2007). However, I feel he misinterpreted the basic concept of the Model being proposed. He is very critical of Noakes, and his "lack of evidence" regarding the CGM. It was difficult to take his conclusions as "evidence" against a neurologic control of the fatigue state when it is based on a misunderstanding of the Model itself. However, the actual research is interesting, in that they looked at blood pressure, heart stroke volume, in terms of VO2...they were still playing with the idea of VO2 max, whihc brings up more questions than answers unfortuately.
Post Number: 288
|Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 05:20 pm: |
Thanks Andrew for the input.
I think we are just at the beginning of a very intense discussion concerning the CGM. There is one very clear reason why. It is the same reason as , why we still hold on the the 4 and 2 mmol lactate concept and the lactate threshold concept.
Can you imagine , how many so called Ph D research papers have to be thrown out as not really accepted papers. So the next few years will be very interesting on how this different models will compete with each other.
In the ECGM ( extended one we try to use for some possible explanations there are evidence based research like the existance of a possible metabo reflex 9 Dempsey ) as well thermo reflexes and so on so ye we have to be open to changes and that does not mean we were wrong at a time ,but just not smart enough to perhaps see the full picture. To your question why VO2 was down. Here a possible explanation with questions ?
My heart rate was basically the same.
My breathing was close to the same. My wattage was for sure the same..
My feeling was terrible ( heavy legs /pain / bad coordination and all what comes with it )
So from a CGM idea the deliver system . cardio out put was the same ,
the respiratory system used and moved the same O2 and the same volume.
What was different is the much higher FeO2 I had, meaning i moved the same amount of air in and the same amount of blood through the system , but I move more O2 back out.
Meaning , that it did not got utilized at the working muscles.
Possible reason :
The eccentric work " damaged" the muscle fibers so that they were not working properly and could not use the delivered O2.
The few , who were working had to produce a much higher energy production which moved them into possible oxygen independent areas as well 9 lactate dynamic ) and that would explain the highr lactate values.
As well it could be that the eccentric work was much harder on STF fibers, than on the FTF which would again help to explain the higher lactate situation.
The messed up intra- muscular coordination , my have contributed to the terrible feeling in the legs during the ride.
What i got out of this is the fact as Andrew mentioned, there is no such thing like a single reason for testing .
The next step will be to have a problem in one of the Delivery system. We have a very nice case study ready and will re-test on Saturday . The case is a problem with the respiratory system , now under med. treatment, and we like to see , what is changing with the advantage , that we know were the problem is.
So stay tuned and great if you come up with discussions , because we still no nothing but still have fun to play.
Where there is a new idea , there are always justify critics, but there is a moment where we have to have the ability to a fair critic.
I will post later an idea of a different view on , how the muscle contraction takes place which is very different , than the classic actin , myosin gliding in each other . Juerg
Post Number: 289
|Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 08:07 pm: |
Now Andrew got me thinking and reviewing my Fit Mate infos again.
Here another interesting observation.
Summary from above.
2oo wattage performance
Wattage HR VO2 Lac FeO2 RF TAV
T1 200 120 30 0.9 15.9 22 60
T2 200 123 25 5.1 17.1 24 64
T2 after 1 week eccentric work
Now becasue I was " dead by 200 wattage from the feeling I did not moved up as planned to 260 to check the influence of slow and fast breathing as planned. So I stayed by 200 for 5 min and had to drop to 180 for the rest of the 30 min.
I did get the slow and fast breathing in, not that I had fun just out of the idea to finish this of.
Here the result but different wattage.
Normal by 260 wattage
RF TAV FeO2
20 83 15.3
42 110 17.3
Now as I checked the numbers in the second test.
by 180 wattage
RF TAV FeO2
22 86 16.9
37 109 17.1
So very little influence in the eccentric test of the ability to "extract " O2. Here a spontaneuos thought.
If the central governor Model works that could mean:
My delivery system : Heart / respiratory system, blood was working more or less the same. ( I have no proof what was going on in the blod ))
My utilization system was "shot" .
Meaning even with the change in TV ( pO2 with slower and deeper breathing I could not change the extraction rate of O2 as the utilization was not working good enough.
So that could mean a leading trend on the way how we can simply test perhaps where a part of the limitation is after what kind of workoputs and than see, how long it takes to regain the utilization rate and perhaps a supercompensation . This would lead to a very individual timing on workout and recovery in the different area of the physiological systems.
Just a thought.
Post Number: 290
|Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 08:10 pm: |
Hmmm just me again . Here a question , who went through my messy brain. If the above is close to a possibility how about that.
If the limitation is in the delivery , let's say the heart ( cardio stat. or the respiratory system metabo stat > stop delivering or allowing blood with O2 to go to the working muscles, than the addition of O2 rich aair during a workout should over rule this and the performance should eb better. Here a search i did. read for your self and put it into the CGM>
Post Number: 291
|Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 07:38 am: |
Thanks yes the HR changed in both day the VO2 only in the second. compared to the respiration rate.
In the first test not much 5 beats from 152 avg. to 156 and VO2 basically the same 36 / 37
in the second test more actually.
HR by slow breathing ( 180 wattage 123 and creaping up to 127 VO2 22
By fast breathing started by the 127 and moving up to 133. The VO2 was higher as well by 26.
so higher TAV and higher HR and same FeO2 compared to slow breathing where smaller TAV same FeO2 lower HR.
This indicates that VO2 in equipment where we measuer it the way this equipment is doing it , depends clearly on FeO2 extraction numbers, as well on TAV. Than we have to think. The higher HR and the faster RR will require more o2 internally to keep going . Extraction rate of O2 in this 2 areas will be the same.
The extraction rate overall was same resp. lower than without eccentric. This would mean the additional race of HR would be the indirect picture of the additional work and O2 required for the heart itself and the respiratory system . Hmm. Meaning we actually can designe workouts , where we can stress the heart , or the respiratory system , and we know already the extremity system independent or nearly from each other so to give one system a break and still workout with the other systems.
Well we work on that thought for a while I guess. Have fun and thanks for the input. ( If you like to get the comments on the Forum register on it , it is easier for me to have not so many e mails but have the discussion open on here. Thanks anyway. Juerg
Post Number: 292
|Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 12:58 pm: |
Andrew had a good comment on my mail.
Yes there is or seems to be the trend. VO2 is higher if FeO2 is lower by a similar TAV.
The other trend is as bigger the TV as lower the FeO2 and now depending on the TAV the VO2 normally will react accordingly.
Now if the FeO2 changes with change of respiratory depth TV. that may be an indication , that the body can utilize the more O2 comming in. If that is true we should see a drop in lactate if we have some in the system.
If this trend keeps showing up we have a very nice tool to see whether the delivery or the utilization is in that particular person of limitation. Now If the FeO2 stays the same but the TAV goes up we will see an increase of VO2.
Now we don't utilize much more as it seems and a part of the increase is the more work of the respiratory system. Now we have to add the heart rate and in the last case the heart rate goes up , possibly as a result of the added respiratory work.
Now as you people can see , that is why I think the Fit Mate has much more potential than what is sold for, with the problem , that we may have to use the brain for a while to figure all out instead of just pushing the buttons and wait for the printout of the VO2 max and the pre calculated zoning and the statistic of bad average good and so on.
True live could be much easier without brain but you know how boring it will be. Smile Juerg
Post Number: 293
|Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 01:57 pm: |
Okay here a nice number
I just had a VO2 max of 109 /kg body weight so quite a bit above Gunde Swan or Lance Armstrong.
I manipulated the dead space using the VO2 equipment and there we have the non thinking equipment giving me interesting results. I added a dead space like the tubes we see in a loy of VO2 testing equipments, and increased the CO2 in there and reduced the O2 in there by breathing through it for a while with no fresh air and than connected it to the testing equipment. and there we have the result. Here the trend.
Lower Os content will change the FeO2 telling the equipment, that I utilize more because the FeO2 in the expired air is much lower and the equipment still tests the expiration % assuming I breath in the 21 %. I could put the equipment on possibly with the desaturated O2 and than the equipment will calibrate from there. I will try to do that.
Nevertheless in this case I artificially reduce the O2 in the expired air and the VO2 result will go up . Proving the point from Andrew that the lower the FeO2 the higher the VO2 by the same TAV .
Now if I breath faster with the same O2 content so I increase the TAV the VO2 goes even higher.
So TAV high FeO2 low = higher VO2. under normal situations.
So what can we use that for.
Well again TAV is delivery of Oxygen . FeO2 is utilization . So good delivery with good utilization + high VO2 but not automatically high performance in wattage or speed. Here we need optimal coordination and economy in the working muscles. It only tells us he can move lot's of air and he can use lot's of O2 the question is where is he using the O2 in the actual mobilization muscles for running or skiing or in the muscles to keep him on the skiis. This is another reason why VO2 max is not a good predictor of performance but an indicator of possible advantages if the person can use the O2 at the right place at the right time.
It also gives some indication , that a good respiratory system , to move lot;s of air in a very effective way will help to add to the potential possibility of using more O2 if all other areas work well.
This is a very nice indication , that as we go ahead with the FaCT IRIS testing in a few years we will have more and more ability find out the individual weaknesses in a person performance and the reaction and benefits certain workouts have on the different systems. Stay tuned and I will be able to collect lots of information on the weekend of the 8 and 9 in joshua tree as Brian comes with his equipment and with a group of people and we will have lot's of datas and can see and compare over time and learn more as we go .