| Author | Message | ||
     Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2510 Registered: 04-2006 |
More thoughts on Bpressey's post. He notes the recovery to 120bpm in 2 minutes from a bpm of about 220. That is almost exactly the suggested recovery by Gary Potter. So Bill your un-named example is not in bad fitness and we're just getting started. This is an interesting part , as over many years and till to this day in human coaching some like to take HR like resting heart rate , as well as "recovery heart rate " as a sign of fitness. I think we have to look at this again with the ability we have this days on assessing more than just HR. Remember: Heart rate is beats per minute and as such that is all what it really tel;ls us. How many time the heart is beating per minute. 1. Resting heart rate. It can be a sign of changes over time but short term changes in resting heart rate are more likely functional reactions rather than actual structural changes. The add on on HRV with the polar watches are an much better tool to control cardiac recovery , than actual resting heart rate. Add the optimizer to it and you can see, that resting heart rate was a great idea at the time but now is replaced by even better ideas. 2. Drop of HR in intervals or after workouts. Same is true here. As we know by now, that HR is a "team member" of CO ( cardiac out but and Ejection fraction % but as well on LVET ( left ventricular ejection time ) we now see much better that the drop in HR down to 120 is a interesting observation of coaches but has very little info on fitness and or recovery . It was easy to use and easy to understand but changes in SV and EF and LVET will create a very different dynamic on the drop in HR and we can see on the same athlete a very different response in heart rate drop , depending on what system we stressed most in the workout. Therefor the idea of using 120 HR as a drop level in interval is not that good of an idea, as it does not tell us the reason of a slow and or fast drop. In humans the recovery and or fitness level has to be seen in the context of the whole system and how they work together. Example: In some people we see a fast drop in heart rate but the stroke volume stays very high up so CO is still high as it may be needed for recovery. In the opposite some people have a fast drop in SDV and the HR stays up so again same CO as CO = HR x SV. Now in the latter the reason of the drop in SV is often together with EF %. Last but not least we see as well a very different "recovery" in the LVET and therefor the heart rate can drop fast or slow. Again it depends as it seems on the "fatigue" and or overload. Here another example: If we do a cardiac workout the HR drops much slower compared to a respiratory workout. . Possible explanation: In the respiratory workout the cardiac muscle is very little used on teh SV can drop very fast but the HR stays up to still keep a certain CO going for distribution of the blood in the body. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 195 Registered: 07-2008 |
Juerg, As always that which you post is very educational. Thank you for this current enlightenment. For clarification, a few years back Gary Potter told me that he believes one bench-mark for using heart rate as a bio-marker for fitness, and perhaps Gary can refine my understanding, is that what ever the horse's heart rate is at the end of a high speed/stress sprint is as the horse slows down to an easy trot or walk if the heart rate, within 2 minutes, drops to 1/2 of that rate the horse demonstrates good fitness. So considering that Bill Pressey's example of 220 to 120 in two minutes is almost right-on to Gary's idea. Never the less, your broad explanation of current science indicates a "Team Approach" when evaluating fitness which includes: CO, EF and LVET. Of course when you discuss some of your testing which you no doubt do on your human athletes there may not be tools yet available for horses. The one exception is the BioHarness which records respiration rate and heart rate. Leonie has our evaluation unit but perceive she has not yet had time to work with it. For reference of CO and SV for a novice like me go to: http://www.answers.com/topic/cardiac-out put-2 For a good definition of Ejection Fraction, go to: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/ejectio n-fraction/AN00360 Here are two links on LVET the second of which indicates a non-invasive measurement from a human finger: http://www.mondofacto.com/facts/dictiona ry?left+ventricular+ejection+time and http://iopscience.iop.org/0967-3334/28/4 /009/ Finally, and this is a biggie, you say above, "The add-on on HRV with the polar watches are a much better tool to control cardiac recovery, than actual resting heart rate. Add the optimizer to it and you can see, that resting heart rate was a great idea at the time but now is replaced by even better ideas." Would you please Jureg, expand on that and tell us what exactly is the Polar add-on/optimizer to which you refer? Thank You Joe | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2517 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here a nice summary I found on the web. http://athlossportsconsulting.com/?page_ id=103 " Heart Rate Variability As Juerg Feldmann from FaCT-Canada likes to say, “The purpose of training is to make you worse. It’s the recovery afterwards that makes you better.” Proper training imposes a stress on the body. After a hard workout an athlete usually feels worse. In many cases, it may take a day or two before the athlete has recovered enough to repeat the workout. If the athlete ignores the feeling of tiredness and fatigue and continues to train hard, he or she risks pushing the body too hard ultimately resulting in an overtraining state. Thus, an important consideration in training is knowing when to train and when to rest. While this seems obvious, it’s surprising how few athletes integrate this concept into their training. Many athletes are wedded to a pre-programmed plan which details daily workouts in advance. Such plans work for some athletes but not others since they fail to account for the individual’s response to training stress. For those that do try to integrate strategic rest days, many do so simply by how they feel. This isn’t a bad way to go but not everyone is capable of separating out physical response from other factors, such as motivation or mood. So is there a way to accurately gauge training stress and recovery? One approach lies in examination of an athlete’s heart rate variability. Imagine a person sitting perfectly with constant heart rate of 60 beats per minute. If the heart rate was perfectly regular, each beat would occur exactly one second (or 1,000 milliseconds (ms)) apart. In reality, heart rate is not exactly regular. One beat might occur 1,015 ms after the previous beat, while the next beat occurs in 992ms. The variation between beats is defined as heart rate variability (HRV). In this example, the HRV between the two beats is 23ms. In medicine, HRV has long been used in monitoring cardiac patients. Abnormally low levels of HRV are considered to be a risk factor for heart failure. Besides its use for critical care patients, sports scientists found HRV can provide insights into healthy athletes. In the 1990’s Polar conducted extensive research into the relationship between HRV and cardiovascular fitness. Their initial research indicated that athletes had a higher resting HRV than sedentary subjects. They expanded their research to investigate HRV levels at different levels of exercise intensity. This research showed a consistent and repeatable relationship between HRV and exercise intensity. Based on this research, Polar developed a feature for their heart rate monitors which calculates an individual’s recommended training zone (heart rate range, e.g. 120-150) based on HRV during a simple step test. They call this feature “OwnZone.” This is a useful test since it can be conducted in any workout as part of a warm-up. If an athlete is tired, the OwnZone is usually lower. Consistent training can lead to higher OwnZone levels. Polar also conducted research into the relationship between HRV and overall cardiovascular capacity as measured by Vo2 max. Their initial research indicated a correlation between these two variables. Based on their findings, Polar gathered a large sample of athletes of different ages and levels of fitness. This study produced a large database composed of age, level of activity, sex, height, weight and HRV. Based on this database and the associated research findings, Polar developed a feature called the “Fitness Test” or FitTest. To perform the FitTest, the athlete lays down perfectly still for approximately five minutes. Based on the HRV during this time, the monitor calculates a number which roughly corresponds to the person’s Vo2 max. Polar suggests that the FitTest be taken periodically to gauge changes in fitness. Juerg Feldmann from FaCT-Canada thinks it can be used much more frequently to measure training effects. Taken daily it can show short-term training impacts. Further, he suggests that the intensity of a specific workout can be assessed by taking the FitTest before and after. Following a particularly hard workout, the FitTest can decrease by five or more points. Finally, Polar used their HRV research in the development of their Optimizer test, which is an extension of the traditional orthostatic heart rate test. In the orthostatic test, the athlete takes a resting heart rate while lying down, then they slowly stand-up and note the maximum heart rate. They remain standing and record the final resting rate. In the Polar Optimizer test, these three steps remain the same and the heart rate monitor automatically records these numbers as well as certain measures of HRV. Every time the test is done, the monitor records the results and builds a database. The monitor calculates a single number based on the readings from the test as well as previous tests. A “1” corresponds to a recovered state while a “2” represents a normal state, a “3” is overtrained. There are a total of nine possible states under the test. Research continues on HRV and exercise. A study published in December 2007 compared two groups of athletes. One group exercised over several weeks according to pre-determined mix of low and high intensity workouts. The workouts of the second group were guided by their HRV. If HRV indicated a recovered state, the athlete would do a high intensity workout. Otherwise, the athlete would do a low intensity workout. Following the training period, the HRV group had significantly greater improvements in terms of Vo2 max and workload compared with the control group. Training can improve performance but it must be done strategically to achieve the best results. HRV is a readily-available tool which an athlete can use to leverage their training to optimum effect. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 197 Registered: 07-2008 |
I'm looking for input from the entire FacT-Canada team. Does anyone know how to set up the Polar system to record HRV? If not I'll call Polar tech support for some help. Own Zone information could be useful to any trainer. I'm a huge fan of our "Step Test" and want to see how that relates to Polar's "FitTest". So chime in people, what are your thoughts from a horse racing perspective on all Juerg is offering. | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Joe- You need to have a model that is capable, such as the RS800 series, what have you been working with? | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 198 Registered: 07-2008 |
P.S. No feeling yet on the "Optimizer Test" Also had a brief conversation with Leonie and got her take on this, and today there are limited tools to get VO2 Max except at a University with a VO2 analyzer. We would need help from Andrew to analyze and tell us what to do with the information. Is there value in this to help the horse race faster or go at top speed for longer? Maybe Ken and Karyn at Rutgers would be interested in playing. We could include some lactate analysis too. I could come up with 2 candidates in 60 days or so and Karyn could probably get us another couple racehorses. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2522 Registered: 04-2006 |
As mentioned n a post above. There are models from Polar , where you can read the HRY out as we test athletes in a step test. We than can see, when the HRV reaches what point and as we re-test the next day or after a workout we can see, whether the cardiac system actually has recovered or not. On much of the fitness models we have now as well the own zone and we use mainly the start HR of the individual Own zone for assessment and recovery. Remember , that this is for humans so no idea what value this may have on horses. One of the reasons why it may have no values in horses is the fact, that the heart of the horse not changes in HR and Stroke volume and therefor as well not in cardiac output ( as we learned from Leonie ) So the reaction may be very different in horses. As well as it seems in horses the drop of the HR in an interval seems a direct info on fitness of teh horses, as in humans it is only an info on how fast the beats per minute drop in a certain time and of limited info on actual fitness levels. Therefor I do not think that the Fit Test , which is an indirect info on VO2 can be used in horses at all. This in mind we as well see, that VO2 max testing in humans is slowly getting out of fashion , as we know , that even VO2 max values have a very limit3ed information on the actual performance of a human. VO2 max only tells us how much O2 this person actually used at the end of an all out test. So it is a more expensive way of telling nothing too much , similar as the max HR in humans is of very limited values as a tool to compare performance. In the mid 1980 I coached to Mexican runners in St. Moritz up to a Marathon. both same age , both training basically the same hours together and both where running in a marathon in Rom 2.14 +- so identical time. One had an average HR of 156 during the race and the other an average HR of 178. Unfortunately at that time we only had VO2 testing and lactate and used the wrong ideas like 2 and 4 mmol and had very little ideas what to learn from this info. Today we could test the Cardiac work and output and see, what the reason is for this different HR in humans, as well we could during the full race actually see with the NIRS which athlete is using the O2 and how much they where able to compensate with the peripheral system the different cardiac levels of performance. Now this days we could live see and test the Cardiac info ( Just done during the Paris Marathon from our friends in Europe. ) as well we can steady assess O2 in the working muscles and how it is used and or re-loaded during a race. We could see with teh Bioharness respiration rate. ( As well you could see R- R on the bio harness for the HRV in humans.) We in contrast to the horse trainers are less interested with all this tools to see,whether the human is going faster but rather on how we can improve recovery and optimize training units, to avoid UPS and injuries . The baseline in human performance is still : Health and fun . This leads to quality workouts and over time to top performance. In horses it seems the factor time is much more crucial to get the performance out of the horse and I can see, that this is the priority. This is fundamentally different with the people we work , as health is the priority at all time. | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 77 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Juerg, Please allow me correct your following quote “that the heart of the horse not changes in HR and Stroke volume and therefore as well not in cardiac output ( as we learned from Leonie )” Here is what I actually said several times now HR max DOES NOT change with training in horses, however stroke volume DOES change. This is important to understand correctly. V02 for horses can tell what energy pathway is being utilized for the speed and/or duration of the exercise and when it changes. Unfortunately, only the Douglas Bag V02 analyzers are available for horses as of yet, not the breath by breath. I hope to have a breath by breath analyzer manufactured for my operation. I too have learned that the key to better performance is not only proper training techniques and protocols but RECOVERY and REST. So what you are saying is not off because we are training horses, just that the majority of the trainers have no concept or knowledge of the physiological effects their training programs are causing. Seems that everyone wants the brainless quick fixes that don’t work and training race horses has been, and still is, done using tradition not science. I am still not convinced that the HR information that is collected on the racetrack is accurate, especially at high speeds. I get more information from my equine weigh scale when I weigh my horses daily than my HR monitor during training. The scale will tell me when my horse has recovered from the” hard day” exercise so that I can do another “hard day” as energy expenditure is weighable. Boy, lots to learn and what more fun can a trainer have than to become successful from all of this. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2527 Registered: 04-2006 |
Great feedback and yes I remember well the add you gave us for the change in SV in horses but be born with a fixed HR. We had ( as a reminder ) some open questions) Here an add on from the human side. Stroke volume in humans can change either functionally or structurally like many other systems. Functionally means, that certain type of training intervention will help over a short time to use a higher percentage of what we have. Example in stroke volume. 100 % of Stroke volume ( theoretically may be 150 ml per beat in a human. Under "normal situations " he may use 80 % and this is than called the actual ejection fraction. The human heart does not throw out all blood so we have normally something called EDV ( end diastolic volume ) and than the Stroke volume and the difference in what stays in the heart is the Ejection fraction left over. So if somebody has an EDV of 150 ml and he has an EF % of 80 % he has a stroke volume of 120 ml. Now with specific workouts we can short term increase the Ejection fraction and therefor the Stroke volume is higher but not the EDV or the actual heart size. As the "valve" where the blood goes into the aorta is the same size there is more pressure build up in the ventricle and the stressor is now more likely pressure , than actual volume and the result of this workouts will have a different structural change on the heart , than when doing a workout , where the volume is challenged. ( Serial and parallel contractile muscle fiber development ) This is , why we see in different sport different cardiac reactions and heart sizes. There are very interesting results from Germany on this. 12 year old kid untrained Heart size 463 ccm 16 year old kid heart size 540 ccm Olympic 100 m winner heart size 606 ccm Olympic 5000 m winner heart size 1243 ccm So there is a functional change in Stroke volume but as you can see as well a structural change if the heart size due to traiing will change. Now in humans, once the heart size is changed that much we will see as well a change in maximal heart rate. The latter is a structural change in stroke volume and it can be , that the Ejection fraction actually may drop in rest down to 60 %. Now the latter has a much bigger ability to respond now. He can change cardiac out put over more abilities. He can simply increase HR and CO goes up by the same SV He can keep the same HR and increase EF % and CO goes up. He can change EF and HR and CO goes even more up . The adjustment now here is that the max HR drops , as it needs ,more "time to fill up a bigger heart and to throw out more blood and therefor the LVET will change as well. The question is what change in Stroke volume Leonie is referring to . Here a "play back " "Perhaps you are forgetting that the foals have to run with the herd to avoid being eaten. Natures has a marvelous way for the foals to run as fast as their mothers to stay away from danger. This is why they can run as fast as his mother." So the foal has already the maximal HR from birth. It has the same speed as the mother , despite shorter legs and it has the same stride frequency as the mother. So as it is all the same than there would be no need to change actual Stroke volume ??? Well actually yes, as the bigger body from teh mother with more muscles and heavier may need more cardiac output for the same speed as the foal and the actual increase in stroke volume would be the compensation for increased cardiac output to keep up with the foal. Now this increase in stroke volume either comes with the birth situation , that the foal may have a much lower Ejection fraction than the mother and the mother than can compensate the stroke volume over using more ejection fraction. That would be a functional adjustment of stroke volume. If it is an actual growing of the heart than it is a structural change and in contrast to the human heart the horse is still able , despite a bigger heart and a bigger volume to actually maintain the maximal heart rate as it was born with. This again shows, why in horse testing the need for maximal HR is only here to do one single time and no retest are needed, as the maximal HR stays the same anyway. Than we can actually go to the formulas of % of maximal HR and have very nice training zones. What may change is the resting heart rate. Now in humans the resting heart rate can again change functionally and structurally depending on workout ideas. I am not sure in horses how that works out ? Now very interesting will be the VO2 testing the use in horses. VO2 = CO x ( a-v ) O2 difference. In humans we do not test VO2 based on this formula. We really can only test with VO2 equipment the (a-v ) o2 difference. We miss out completely on the CO. How does the VO2 testing in horses take the CO in account and how do the plan to change that with or without Douglas bag ? As you can see many questions we where once already discussing but still very interesting to see the big difference between a horse cardiac reaction and a humans heart reaction. Great discussion and great project with the Main project. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2528 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here a short abstract on teh discussion on HR drop and reaction on Stroke volume from an earlier day. " ARTICLES Stroke volume during recovery from upright bicycle exercise D. I. Goldberg and R. J. Shephard A CO2 rebreathing method has been modified to allow nonsteady-state measurements of cardiac output during and after recovery from upright bicycle ergometer exercise. Data obtained on 10 healthy men who continued loadless pedaling for 4 min following a progressive exercise bout to 70% of maximum oxygen intake showed a rapid recovery of heart rate. In contrast, there was an early 29% increase of stroke volume and 216 s after exercise the stroke volume was still larger than the final exercise reading. It appears that if venous return is facilitated, the metabolic needs of recovery plus the small cost of loadless pedaling are met by maintaining stroke volume rather than heart rate." What we see with the Physio Flow is different directions. Reason is , that as usual this studies are done on a very small group. We have now data's ( not enough yet ) from over 250 tests and we see teh above trend in some but we see as well fast drops in SV but higher maintenance of HR. It looks as it depends on the person and teh way the cardiac system is stressed in different activities. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 199 Registered: 07-2008 |
Bill Pressey 05/02 In harness we use mostly the CS600. Do you know if we can get HRV with the 600? Juerg 05/02 You are a clever dude. So with a BioHarness we can get more valuable information? You say in humans, “We in contrast to the horse trainers are less interested with all this tools to see whether the human is going faster but rather on how we can improve recovery and optimize training units, to avoid UPS and injuries . The baseline in human performance is still, Health and fun . This leads to quality workouts and over time to top performance. In horses it seems the factor time is much more crucial to get the performance out of the horse and I can see, that this is the priority. This is fundamentally different with the people we work with, as health is the priority at all time.” Well stated J, many race horse trainers do not care much about Health and Fun…just show me the money. Yet to improve recovery, optimize training units and avoid injuries indicates we are on the correct path and our efforts may ultimately have value. Leonie 05/03 You clarified your past comments nicely on this post but please expand on “V02 for horses can tell what energy pathway is being utilized for the speed and/or duration of the exercise and when it changes.” You also said, “I am still not convinced that the HR information that is collected on the racetrack is accurate, especially at high speeds. I get more information from my equine weigh scale when I weigh my horses daily than my HR monitor during training. The scale will tell me when my horse has recovered from the” hard day” exercise so that I can do another “hard day” as energy expenditure is weighable.” I too have one of Leonie’s scales and believe that using weight recovery as a bio-marker has merit but only in the long term. One point is, what is a horse’s weight bench mark? With a heavy workout and depending on the weather, a horse could lose 50 pounds or more and may not return to the weight prior to the workout, for example it could be more with increased muscle density. As to the accuracy of high speed recordings of heart rates, for the level of understanding and application we have with all of this stuff, Polar readings are adequate but still we are working to improve the reliability when going higher speeds. “Lots to learn and what more fun can a trainer have than to become successful from all of this”. Right-on Leonie and there’s that “fun” word again…I Love It. Juerg 05/04 Structural versus functional may be the prime elements in all we are doing. “Functionally means, that certain type of training intervention will help over a short time to use a higher percentage of what we have.” “A structural change in stroke volume can be that the Ejection fraction actually may drop in rest down to 60 %.” “So there is a functional change in Stroke volume but as you can see as well a structural change if the heart size due to training will change.” Huh? We need to become very adroit when understanding structural and functional needs of the race horse athlete. Two questions: How do we determine what is needed now? How to best address development? The tools we have are: Heart Rate Monitors, Resistance Carts and Lactate Analyzers. Forget the tools we do not have as someone else can work-out those details. Scott and Allison in Maine may believe they have found the “Holy Grail” with Per Henriksen’s up-hill with resistance workouts. Leonie says we’re incomplete. “You can integrate two or three 2 mile, 20 mph intervals keeping the heart rate at about 180 bpm. Allow 90 seconds of recovery between the intervals…slow trot or canter and walking is okay.” There is real value to Leonie’s inclusion. It relates to helping dedicate type 2c(?) muscle fibers to best perform in 1 mile to 1˝ mile sprints I think. Juerg 05/06 “It appears that if venous return is facilitated, the metabolic needs of recovery plus the small cost of load-less pedaling are met by maintaining stroke volume rather than heart rate." How do we record the SV information? How do we use SV information in a training program How does HRV play into all of this? J | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 78 Registered: 07-2008 |
Joe, You have miss-interpreted what I said about being “incomplete” in your training program. I sail that you are not training at heart rates between 180 and 210 very much. These are not intervals but continuous 2 mile works at those heart rates. | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2008 |
RR Data Function Select Settings > Features > RR data > On / Off The RR data recording function measures and records heartbeat intervals with one millisecond resolution. This enables the analysis of heart rate variability (HRV) using the Polar ProTrainer 5 software. Here is a sample of the data I get from my RS800: Data Value Unit Duration 0:29:30 Sampling Rate R-R Intervals Number of Heart Beats 2990 beats Minimum R-R Interval 255 ms (235 bpm) Average R-R Interval 592 ms (101 bpm) Maximum R-R Interval 3999 ms (15 bpm) RLX baseline 26 ms Standard Deviation 324.8 ms Max/min ratio 15.68 Weighted RR Average 770 ms SD1 52.6 ms SD2 456.1 ms RMSSD 74.4 ms pNN50 0.7 % Total power (0.003 - 0.400 Hz) 30028.14 ms˛ VLF (0.003 - 0.040 Hz) 20344.60 ms˛ (67.8 %) LF (0.040 - 0.150 Hz) 7230.88 ms˛ (24.1 %) HF (0.150 - 0.400 Hz) 2452.66 ms˛ (8.2 %) LF/HF ratio 294.9 % | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2008 |
My question to Juerg: Is there any use for HRV info collected during exercise? As opposed to at rest in order to determine recovery time/over-training? | ||
| Binmar_racing Intermediate Member Username: Binmar_racing Post Number: 17 Registered: 07-2008 |
Of all the numbers provided by Polar which one is or which ones are the best indicator of HRV. RLX baseline 26 ms Standard Deviation 324.8 ms Max/min ratio 15.68 Weighted RR Average 770 ms SD1 52.6 ms SD2 456.1 ms RMSSD 74.4 ms pNN50 0.7 % Which One??? | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2008 |
Binmar- From what I gather, it's this stuff (at rest): Total power (0.003 - 0.400 Hz) 30028.14 ms˛ VLF (0.003 - 0.040 Hz) 20344.60 ms˛ (67.8 %) LF (0.040 - 0.150 Hz) 7230.88 ms˛ (24.1 %) HF (0.150 - 0.400 Hz) 2452.66 ms˛ (8.2 %) LF/HF ratio 294.9 % http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jes/ 14/3/97/_pdf (sorry I can't seem to cut and paste the info) This study talks about Japanese great T.M. Opera O and his HRV at rest compared to others. | ||
| Binmar_racing Intermediate Member Username: Binmar_racing Post Number: 18 Registered: 07-2008 |
Leonie and Joe, Do you not assume that the greatest percentage of weight lost after a strenuous exercise to be more gut fill and water loss than actual glycogen or fat depletion? If so, than would that weight loss variance from one intense exercise bout not be more an indicator of the variance in sweat production more than anything else. Furthermore, I would venture to say that sweat production is more dependent on temperature than the actual intensity of the exercise. Now having said that water repletion after strenuous exercise is essential and a big component of that horse's further performance ability. So I do agree it is important, but I am not willing to say that it all fat or gylcogen and good indicator of exercise intensity | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2530 Registered: 04-2006 |
The most simple way we use HRV is the RLX as it tracks live during a step test on the watch. . The question on using HRV during workout is a good one and my answer would be . I don't know but have to try to look closer at this question. We use RLX or HRV in rest mainly and keep it in comparison to resting heart rate and either orthostatic test or optimizer, depending what watches the clients have. To Joe. I am not sure yet , what connection there may be between HRV and SV at rest after some hard workout or races. After long races there seems to be a left ventricular problem with many athletes over a period of at least 72 hours and it would be interesting to see , how that combines between readings of HRV and SV. This needs to be done on a big group of people and than see possible trends. That will take another about 5 years, as the north American sport science is for the moment running behind the fast developpment in technology and testing and the market now is concentrating towards China and India, as Physio Flow just opened a distributorship there and I hope to meet with the CEO in Vancouver soon. To Joe functional and structural. and time. Joe you are right and this may be a big difference between traiing a human versus a horse. In humans we use functional ideas in the event of upcoming races, where there is no time for structural changes anymore and we have to see, where we stand now with pushing some functional ideas. So one of the ideas is to see, how we can change EF % with what kind of short term workouts and how interval may influence this functional reactions as well how long we can afford to work with this ideas, before we see a "break down" of one or the other system. The key is to stop functional workouts as soon we see we dig and start to dis troy structural systems. Example. After marathon runs we see in some cases structure destruction of cardiac muscle . So it is important to get proper rest after an event like that . The key is again to try to find out , when we can go back to training and racing . | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 200 Registered: 07-2008 |
Leonie - May 7 Leonie, I did not misinterpret what you said, I just offered the politically correct version of what you said which was, “Tell Scott he is missing the f-----g boat by relying solely on up-hill 350 yard intervals with resistance. In addition to some long slow distance early on to build the structure, doing 2, 3 or more two mile 20 mph works keeping the bpm’s at about 180 beats will yield some interesting results too. Next Leonie you said they are not intervals rather 2 mile works. It’s semantics LeLe. They are intervals, long ones not short ones. An interval can be any distance as long as there is more than one. Bpressey – May 7 Bill, I’m almost sorry I asked lol. The numbers are numbers and presently mean little to me. I want to understand what they represent and plan to do so with time. Thank you for sharing and we can hopefully explore more in the near future. But, key point is that Polar’s CS600 can RR Data. I’m pretty sure will be buying Leonie’s used walk-trot treadmill and will be in Lex, KY to pick it up within 30 days. Perhaps we can meet then. Binmar Racing May 7. 6:06 AM. Marc, I presume that Bill answered your question. 6:20 AM. Marc, my guess is that after an intense training session or race that weight loss is mostly due to shitting and sweating therefore temperature would have an impact. My point was this however, if we are going to use weight recovery as a bio-marker then if we are working our horses intensely to build muscle we could anticipate a regular weight gain over a period of time as I think muscle weighs more than fat. I haven’t said anything for a while to really turn your crank Marc, shame on me. Let’s try this one for crank turning potential. “Other than what a racehorse gets in grain, hay and an ounce of olive oil a day feed them ZERO FAT. Feed straight oats and barley (steam rolled or at least steam crimped), add some course cracked (cleaned) corn for extra carbs when you want or use maltodextrin. Along with a good multi-vitamin and 9 to 12 ounces of whey protein a day is all the racehorse needs to excel on the track. In a 1 to 1 ˝ mile race fat is not a fuel. I can hardly wait to read your response to that gem. I suspect that Gary Potter will have some thoughts on the subject as well. Juerg May 7 Juerg, What is RLX? Kevin and I still want to put together a Glossary of terms but have made little progress other than a basic template with Dreamweaver which would go in rcswins.com. You said, “Joe you are right and this may be a big difference between training a human versus a horse. In humans we use functional ideas in the event of upcoming races, where there is no time for structural changes anymore and we have to see, where we stand now with pushing some functional ideas.” Juerg I think it may be not so much of a difference for how the horse responds to the work over a period of time rather how the racehorse’s trainer and owner respond with patience for development. Health and fun is often over-shadowed by just show me the money…like now! Here’s a case in point, in the Maine Project there have been 9 horses. 7 have been conditioned almost exclusively with only a few months of nothing but 350 yard up-hill intervals with resistance (Per Henriksen’s MO). Allentown and Our Black Jelly Bean have had a blend of uphill, long distance of LBP-20 and some short interval speed work. Scott’s perception then based on the results of 2 of the other horses racing (Cancun Time and Eric the Enemy) is they are far and away better prepared to win races. So what does the owner (me) do? Start working Al and JB the same as the other horses of course…at least for now. Even if for the long run there is a better way, I need to see the money sooner not later. Gaylord stated that Al and JB are 6 weeks behind the rest based on his notes, which I have not yet seen. We are also placing a lot on Per H’s real world results with his horse’s who are worked only with the up-hill with resistance intervals and only every other day My guess is that a horse that has had some serious long slow distance work, in the long run, will be the better performer. Of course I know from personal experience that Leonie’s 2 mile/20mph/180bpm interval is hot. We’ll be hearing from Andrew on this point to reinforce what we are doing or perhaps what we are not doing. Our operation here at old stage farm is getting stronger. We use all of our tools: resistance carts, heart monitors, lactate analyzers, a small walk/trot tread mill, all available science and focus on blended development; long distance (LBP minus 20bpm) steady state, longer 2 mile @ 20 mph intervals keeping the heart rate 180 to 200 bpm with 90 seconds of recovery between intervals and some high-speed work. I am not sure but there may not ever be too much structural development. Finally we have functional work (intervals) to spark racing results. Jureg you said, “So one of the ideas is to see, how we can change EF % with what kind of short term workouts and how interval may influence this functional reactions as well how long we can afford to work with this ideas, before we see a "break down" of one or the other system. The key is to stop functional workouts as soon we see we dig and start to destroy structural systems. An example is after marathon runs we see in some cases structure destruction of cardiac muscle. So it is important to get proper rest after an event like that. The key is again to try to find out, when we can go back to training and racing.” So, and correct me if I’m wrong, we can continually stress the athlete for greater performance results as long as there is adequate time for recovery. The key is then to find the optimal recovery time needed for each athlete based on the situation? I need to review my Ejection Fraction notes as am not sure how EF% fits in. Allentown won the 2010 Opener at Bangor (Maine) Raceway in grand style. Remember he was racing like shit. Scott put him on MacK Center’s 350 yard up-hill with resistance protocol and the old man kicked ass.  What I am really liking is: Lots of early season LBP-20/30 miles. Then do Ľ mile intervals with resistance (50 to 60 bar) with 1 minute on and 2 minutes off (recovery). Start with 5 and work up to 8. Then go back to 5 but add 10 bar. Last for now is to intersperse longer intervals of 2 miles at 20mph keeping the bpm at about 180. Allow 90 seconds of recovery between the intervals and do 2 to get started. Nite J | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 79 Registered: 07-2008 |
Joe, Very cool race for Allentown and Scott, congrats. Nice even fractions and that one 29.3 second quarter was the winning quarter. They are intervals when they are works at any distance separated by a timed rest period. I don’t think that two days of rest would qualify as a rest period, however. When I told you about the work outs going 2 miles at a heart rate BETWEEN 180 and 210, I was speaking of doing only one not intervals. With harness horses, you may even do 3 consecutive miles at those heart rates; with the thoroughbreds I do 2 consecutive miles like that, very effective for changing the muscle fiber types. | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 403 Registered: 04-2006 |
Can you explain a bit more about your theory of changing Al's muscle fiber type? Are you suggesting the 2 mile intervals will change his muscle fibers from STF to FTF with these sessions, or the other way around? Do you have any evidence from muscle biopsy studies to back up this claim? I would suggest the Joe's idea for Al's training over the next few weeks is good. But I would also suggest the changes that occur from the sustained work at 180 is much more likely to increase cardiac size, rather than have any peripheral efects on muscle fiber types. If I am correct, we will possibly see a drop in LBP, and improved speed at lower HR, a result of the increased cardiac output from a larger stroke volume. If Leonie's theory on muscle fiber changes is true, then I can explain the changes in lactate trends we would notice once she clarifies how the muscle fibers will change. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 201 Registered: 07-2008 |
Leonie, Actually the 29.3 was his THIRD quarter but I agree that's where he performed especially well. Your memory is getting shorter LeLe, a few years ago you and I designed and employed the following: We did two, three or more 2 mile, 20 mph intervals while keeping beats per minute about 180 with 90 seconds of recovery between the intervals. We had some successes with this. Please read on for changing muscle-fiber types information. As to Leonie's theory please read this excerpt from www.rcswins.com essays. For the entire paper go to: http://rcswins.com/thoroughbred_essays/n ot_a_mystery/index.htm This is a compendium of ideas offered by Joe Geiser, Leonie Seesing and Kevin Nally. "Not A Mystery" is not a mystery. "One of the keys to training for high speed stamina is to better understand muscles and how they work. Type I muscle fibers are also called slow twitch fibers (aerobic) or red muscle fibers. They are red because their capillary system is comparatively large accommodating all the blood flow it can get. These muscles are aerobic and oxygen serves as a primary fuel source - Oxygen Dependent. They are in operation all the time and mostly help with endurance. These fibers are rugged and not so easily injured. They can handle extreme amounts of work and do not fatigue easily. They are oxygen dependent since they require blood oxygen as fuel and used in human athletic activities like middle distance running, soccer, cycling and cross country. Type IIA fibers are fast twitch (FT) white muscle fibers, anaerobic...oxygen independent. These fibers have much less blood flow in them and have a more limited tolerance to fatigue. They can handle only short demands of all-out-work. They require glycogen, which is derived from carbohydrates, as fuel. They are involved in athletic activities like basketball, baseball, soccer and football. Type IIB fibers are also fast twitch (FT-B) white muscle fibers but these fibers have a very low tolerance to fatigue and need a long period of recovery after use. They are extremely powerful and explosive fibers. Human sport comparisons like power lifting, the pitch of a baseball, javelin throwing, shot putting or the beginning of a sprint are examples. In other words, anything that needs a short burst of explosive energy. Because of this, type IIB fiber’s fuel is ATP/CP (Adenosine Tri-Phosphate and Creatine Phosphate) Type IIC fibers (FT-C) are "freak" type fibers. They are formed when satellite cells chemically bind with the Type IIB fibers. This event is called hypertrophy. Body building is a prime example. Satellite cells are cells that abound in muscle tissue but have no contractile ability until they are developed and assigned. Maybe we could call them “swing cells”. Science is still unclear about more details, but knows that their function will add structural support to the muscle." So tell me what is missing? What is incorrect? What are the options? Let's please clarify my idea for the next few weeks of training Al and JB. I want Scott to continue to do his up-hill with resistance workouts. When we get an off week we will do a full LBP Test including a Step Test. I am re-tooling Old Stage Farm/Racing to accomodate: 1. LBP-20 long miles with a treadmill. 2. Up-Hill sprints can happen once we get Hickory Run State Park to allow us to use Green Field. 3. Our farm track will easily allow 20 mile per hour intervals with or without resistance. This is an excellent assembly for any training center. Shortly we plan to ship King's Cavalier to MacK Center. KC is a 3 year old gelding trotter with good blood lines. Scott and Allison together are magic. Julie and I are thinking about a plan to take KC to Maine, spend some time with S & A, re-connect and scope-out the rest of our lives together. Regardless of the truth of the theory please expound on more information about Lactate Trends. Thank You, Nite J | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 404 Registered: 04-2006 |
As you showed in previous posts, 20mph is not the same for each horse. So, for the question is always...why? Why 20mph. Why not 21 or 19.5. A similar question would be put to Leonie...who suggested a single sustained run at HR 180-210. For humans, this kind of HR range is quite significant, and I would suggest there are large physiologic differences between a HR of 180 and a HR of 210. And this is why we feel there is a major need to use other available biomarkers to help decide which HR may in fact help with training the desired system. Leonie suggests this single interval type training, at this recommended HR, will stimulate muscle fibre type "changing". Joe has done a good job at summarizing the different muscle fibere types, and their respective fuel demands, and resistance to fatigue. So, now we get to a philosophical discussion on training, and a challenge to the current understanding of training used by most North American coaches and trainers. Bare with me, and read the following thoughts with an open mind, before formulating your response...then come back with your ideas... Over the distance we are racing these horses, there is much more demand on oxygen dependent energy production than previously thought (based on similar timed races in humans, and the use of VO2 equipment on small samples of athletes). This type of energy metabolism (oxygen dependent) can only take place in muscle cells rich with mitochondria. These are seen under the microscope as more "red", due to the higher capillary content required to supply oxygen rich blood to the fibres themselves. These used to be called "red fibres", but more recently were termed Slow-twitch due to a very small difference in contractile time, which is NOT a hindrance to leg speed or coordination at the rates humans and horses can move. These fibres should be called "slow-to-fatigue" fibers, as they are much less prone to shutting down at high intensity than the "white" fibres or Fast-twitch variety. Therefore, the training we recommend should be on developing mitochondria and capillarization in the horses muscles in the safest and most efficient training routine. Now, if there is any truth to this wild theory that we have worked on for years in human athletes, and been very successful with proving in small groups of athletes with enough patience to continue working with us, then we can now have a discussion regarding how to train a horse with a similar goal in mind...that is, develop mitochondria and capillarization to develop the oxygen dependent energy pathways and provide more speed, with less fatigue. Is Allentown 6 weeks behind the other horses. I hope so. It will mean he may have been developing better structures, rather than more functional use of his current body, and will be better able to improve his performance now that the racing has begun. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2534 Registered: 04-2006 |
1. there is much more demand on oxygen dependent energy production than previously thought . This is a very good point Andrew makes. The reason why we know this now is less based on ideas and tradition than on now the ability to actually test it . Andrew is one of the "lonely" coaches and Physicians , who could see and test this first hand. I like to add some more ideas to that summary from Andrew and add some thoughts again, that a range of 180 - 210 HR beats in humans can be an incredible different outcome in training results at any time even intra individual. We not even talk about inter- individual ideas. Having a fixed speed as an interval ideas in humans is even further away from any reasonable training ideas. The classical ideas on interval in humans is based on really nothing than organizational advantage. We run 5 x 1 min intervals because the watch is easy to read every minute. We do 5 because the hand has 5 fingers. We run 400 m interval in track and field so the coach has not to move from start to finish . We swim 5o m interval out of teh same reason. There are no physiological ideas behind at all but some nice theories never proven till now. Here as a discussion a print from 2 different intervals. First few intervals where short and based on time 30 sec all out and 1 min rest. Second ( higher line where physiological intervals based on the same recovery and the same intracellular metabolic load. As you can easy see in the first artificially timed once the tHb as well as hHb change and in fact it shows , that the hHb ( use of O2 increases with each additional interval and not as so often claimed decreases. Just because there is an accumulation of lactate does not mean, that O2 is not used anymore. It is still used and Dudley's "rat tests" actually had the open question why STF fibers are getting again more active at the all out speed but they had no explanation to it. Here you see the explanation. The body steady uses O2 even in all out runs, but the main involved muscle groups have to try to maintain ATP production as well over O2 independent energy sources as the O2 dependent energy sources are not able to upkeep ATP production alone as demand is higher than production ability. Here to enjoy .  | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2536 Registered: 04-2006 |
I had a short mail from a european horse lover concerning interval and body reactions. Answer: No Ideas in horses nor whether there are serious research done or just mythical ideas of coaches. Here what we know in humans from hormonal reactions in interval to study .  | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 202 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew you said, “A similar question would be put to Leonie...who suggested a single sustained run at HR 180-210. For humans, this kind of HR range is quite significant, and I would suggest there are large physiologic differences between a HR of 180 and a HR of 210. And this is why we feel there is a major need to use other available biomarkers to help decide which HR may in fact help with training the desired system.” I think Leonie was shooting from the hip. There are absolutely significant differences in training 180 bpm muscle fibers and 210 bpm muscle fibers considering the horse’s resting and maximum heart rate today. We are pretty damned sure that we may not change the horse’s maximum heart rate but we can change the size of the heart and the efficiency measured by stroke volume. I’m thinking that to maximize M&C growth we need lots of miles well below LBP. If the racehorse trainer is used to going 4 miles in 20 minutes, then go 8 miles in 40 minutes. Those long slow miles will increase M&C development. If we want to fatigue later must we not build more “slow to fatigue” fibers. In the real world this will not fly as trainers want to reduce training time not increase it. For my stable I am hiring people with patience who will spend 45 minutes behind a horse twice a day with bpm at LBP – 40. I want to do this once a week. Patience is absolutely the answer. “Developing mitochondria and capillarization will build oxygen dependent energy pathways and provide and ultimately more speed, with less fatigue. In other words, “Race at top speed for longer durations”. It’s still all about structural AND functional development. I am thinking that after a 20 to 30 race season, turn the horses out for 4 to 6 weeks. Then do 2 to 3 months of 120 to 140 bpm miles for at least 45 minutes a day, three times a week. Regardless of the horse I like 2 mile intervals at 180 bpm with 90 seconds of walk recovery in between…2, 3 or more. I also love :60 second sprints with at least 50 bar of resistance and :60 to :90 seconds of recovery. Maybe in our next life we will be able to understand the small points. This week Scott is entering Allentown in the NW 2100 Last 5 for Tuesday. Al will be up a class and the competition will be faster. Jelly Bean is showing unique capabilities. Today we worked King's Cavalier with 5 one minute intervals and 50 bar of resistance. We wanted two minute recoveries between the intervals and our goal was 20 miles per hour. KC delivered 22 MPH on the 5th interval and it with no problem. KC lowered his head, widened his back legs and was very comfortable with the task. The upcoming week we will go to 6 intervals. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 203 Registered: 07-2008 |
Juerg You are driven, an extremely intelligent man and you will always be one of my heroes. Sometimes though your drive and intelligence gets in the way of basic understanding. It would be good if sooner rather than later you spent more time better explaining what you present. In our group we may have members who can read and understand your visuals but I need more help. We have guys like Cranwell, Potter, Blouin, Pressey and others who may understand to a tee…but not me! For example, if you took some time and explained, at least labled, the blue, green and red lines in visual 1 it would be good. What is tHb and hHb? I loved your explanation on how we come up with numbers. Over time numbers that become gospel may be merely original short cuts to make it easy for the trainer…interesting. You explain the graph in your 05/19 post: “STF fibers are getting again more active at the all out speed but they had no explanation to it. Here you see the explanation.” We must understand the freekin’ graphs to appreciate the freekin’ explanation. “The body steady uses O2 even in all out runs, but the main involved muscle groups have to try to maintain ATP production as well over O2 independent energy sources as the O2 dependent energy sources are not able to upkeep ATP production alone as demand is higher than production ability.” Actually thanks to you I have a basic grasp of what you wrote. Thank You! It’s all very complex and in the racehorse training world today, since the tools to analyze are so remote, using many of these ideas may be too far ahead of their time. I’m almost sixty freekin’ six years old, have virtually exhausted my retirement plan chasing a profit in this crazy business of racing horses and added over $100,000 of additional debt. Sixty freekin’ six years old and my kids love me but think I may have been tossed off the sulky too many times. I am committed to turning this into financial profits for the benefit of our sport: horses, owners, trainers, the entire industry and the public as in those who bet on the horses at the window, and those who do not. Racing horses has thousands of years of history. Chances are our perceived revolutionary ideas may be merely evolutionary. Compared to racing wheeled vehicles, racing horses is a distant cousin. In NASCAR, Indy and Formula One probably more than One Billion is spent every year on getting technology in play. If us horse racing people are going to compete we need to compete. Using technology is not cheap but we need to get our fundamental heads out of our basic asses, collectively. Thank You Joe | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2539 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks Joe for this nice info. Here some help for people more interested in the human aspect. Any info and explanation on NIRS and what the different colours mean is nicely documented on the human NORS PortaMon Forum part. We are just in the starting face to actually see more ideas with the intracellular technique as we go along and anytime we challenge an existing traditional idea we are surprised that we get more questions than actual answers. . Welcome in the close to sixty age group Joe. Enjoy life and relax and use all the experience you got over sixty years to be able to lean back and smile and just be and not worry. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 204 Registered: 07-2008 |
Juerg You said, "Here some help for people more interested in the human aspect. Any info and explanation on NIRS and what the different colours mean is nicely documented on the human NORS PortaMon Forum part. We are just in the starting face to actually see more ideas with the intracellular technique as we go along and anytime we challenge an existing traditional idea we are surprised that we get more questions than actual answers." If we are going to make our "Human Athlete to Horse Athlete" ideas work we need to make them easier for the horse trainer to understand the information. We need to dig into other FacT Forum threads to present the support information. For sure we also need to minimize the work hours for you and I. I have not the time to dig into NIRS and NORS. Do we know anyone who knows FaCT Forum, who is willing to do some research and then write for the good of our human to horse cause? That person could work from $8 to $10 /hour? F-C and RCS can split the cost. That is no biggie boys. As to your "close to sixty" age group comment I'm actually closer to 70 than 60. I am older than you and always will be. You do not have to call me sir just Mr Geiser. Your sage ideas, "Enjoy life, relax, lean back, smile and not worry" are not bad. However since I am older than you and with probably less time than you remaining in this life, I prefer to be relaxed but only when springing forward. Grinning and growling may be better than smiling. It is maybe all about energy. If I have more energy than my competition I will win. It is important that we clearly define energy. The word worry generates interesting thoughts. If one does not worry then maybe one is not advancing. Some times I worry about you Juerg. Joe |