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     Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 164 Registered: 07-2008 |
Leonie, I recall a conversation we had just after Eight Bells went down in the Derby 2008. Your take was, “After 10 stride cycles at race speed the bones begin to de-mineralize and maybe Bells was not conditioned for that.” You also said, “It is not so difficult to better condition the bones, connective tissue, tendons and ligaments with early speed work. Concussion will stimulate bone growth.” “Adding some resistance work will only help if applied logically. Resistance is basically about working on hills and the operator controls the steepness and length of the hill just by applying and removing resistance”. Andrew, you said: Leonie, Thank-you for posting the summary article, to give me a start on learning about the differences between horses and humans. The more I read, the more I find exactly the same issues, and gives me more confidence that our group are on the right track. Though I have not had time to review the basic research you quoted, I did take a few pieces from the article that fit with the human medical model of bone development. That is, progressive exercise makes for dramatic improvements in lamellar bone, which is the building block for healthy strong bones in the future. Whereas if "stress is applied suddenly, periostial bone is formed instead of lamellar bone". The only problem with quoting Nunaker's study in the article regarding the different training regimes, is they made no mention of the length of the study, nor the number of injuries found in each group at a later date. I don't disagree with the benefit that a progressive program of "short speed bursts" will increase lamellar bone growth. However, this study was only comparing the development of the cannon bones of 2-year olds with "traditional training methods". The study did not compare bone development in horses doing resistance training, or hill intervals. The article does make very good statements about the need to consider the different ages of the horses, and the incredible differences between the bone remodelling of young horses, and those over 4. And also adds to our idea of the positive effect of developing muscle tension and "fitness" to help with bone development. Again, this shows a very clear similarity between humans and horses. Though bone remodeling in elderly patients is much slower to children and even young adults, there is significant reduction in hip fractures with strength and balance training in this group. In conclusion, I think we should be a bit careful about making making statement about the "best" or "only" way to develop lamellar bone formation in horses. Andrew Andrew “Best” and “Only” are relative terms and may not apply for a true researcher. Best and only are almost like saying, “Can’t, Never or should”. Allentown and Jelly Bean are handling significant work quite well so far. The treadmill is going to happen. Understading lamellar versus periostial bone is good to know. I hope I can remmber it. Gotta’ try to get some sleep now. | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 166 Registered: 07-2008 |
For Your Information http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/ pii/S8756328203001133 | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 55 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, The only thing that has increased bone density in my horses has been the short speed plays, or Fartleks similar to the ones in the article. I have done extensive hill workouts using my treadmill without success because on a hill, you lessen the concussion on the front leg canon bones. I can get bone density changes on my treadmill only when I place 100 pounds or more weight on the horses back,(my treadmill has a forgiving surface and great suspension) but (now here is the catch) the bones only obtain enough density for racing speed concussion in a straight line. I will take those horses to the track to work them and get an isolated left front shin micro fracture when they work around a turn. This puzzled me for a few years until I came to the conclusion that I needed to work the speed plays only on the turn. Once I started doing that, I have yet to have a horse become shin sore. Galloping Thoroughbreds have about 4 to 7 percent more concussion on the lead leg in the turn than the non lead leg. Here is another good one. If you race at a certain speed and then, for some reason, race faster, you can get shin sore again. Your story in the forum about the person who's bones were so weak that they broke their fibula was probably because the fibula was not trained to become denser before doing more than it could handle as it is the thinnest bone in the leg. Nunamaker's studies were very extensive. I always look to find "holes" in studies and Nunamaker's studies were solid. I have attached one of the best articles I have found on Bone Density Changing writting by my favorite author and friend, Les Selnow.
I have "shin bucked" a 6 year old in the past, and I currently have a 6 year old gelding in training that was not broke until last year and is training well other than an old splint that is giving me some trouble, this is also a bone density issue. The splint bones in horses are left over from prehistoric times when horses had three toes. Splint bones are the two outside toes that receded up the leg, they lay against the cannon bone on both medial and lateral sides. Joe, You miss-understood what I said about Eight Bells and bone density. I said that it takes 6 stride cycles at racing speed to begin the demineralization process in bone. Everytime a horse races, they will loose about 4 percent bone density and 10 percent loss will constitute a break. Why Eight Bells broke down is still a speculation, she could have had osteocondrosis. Concussion (short bursts) will stimulate bone density changes, not growth. | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 167 Registered: 07-2008 |
Here's another version of Bone Formation with Exercise that Leonie attached above. Some may have had a problem opening the earlier version. Perhaps this one will open as an MS Word doc.
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| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 168 Registered: 07-2008 |
Yes, I saved it in my Desktop and it opened. | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 48 Registered: 09-2008 |
Hello Leonie, For TB's, have you been able to induce relevant and useful bone density and other adapations on your large diameter exercisers? Or is even a 100' diameter with weighted saddle too tight and tough on the joints? Karsten | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 58 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Karsten, I gallop my horses in my 68 foot exerciser all the time and even add around 100 lbs of weight and use bitting rigs to put them into a frame. Yes, I get a lot of useful bone density (for the speed that they are doing) and cardio fitness because my exerciser can gallop at a speed of 20 mph, which is fast enough to stimulate a training effect eg. cardio, muscle, soft tissue and some bone density. I have not had any joint problems because I never gallop the horses unless my surface is banked on the outside fence which will keep their limbs landing equal. I do not believe that I am getting enough bone density because I am not mimicking racing speed concussion. I have not had any shin sore horses when I go to the track with them, however. When I take the horses to the track, which is about twice per week, they will work those 1/8 mile speed plays during their cardio works. The key to developing strong bone density is through developing lamellar bone not periosteal bone. |
Bone Formation with Exercise