| Author | Message | ||
     Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 146 Registered: 07-2008 |
What is it? Why is it important? Will it improve my stable's bottom line? How do we do it? | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 148 Registered: 07-2008 |
What? It is depleting the energy stores sometime before the race and replenishing with new and perhaps more fuel. How many days before the race? Why? We want the horse peak at race time. What's in it for me? We will improve our bottom lines. How? The beat goes on. J | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 149 Registered: 07-2008 |
Still have no more input from Renny Shoop VMD on spleen dumping but he is positive of his 3 full blood circulations per minute in a resting horse. Here's a paper from the human world. How long does it take your heart to circulate the total amount of blood in your body? (Lansing State Journal, December 01,1993) ________________________________________ For a person at rest, it takes just about one minute. If you are more active, it will take less time. Exactly how long depends on several things: the rate at which your heart beats, how big your heart is, and, to a certain extent, how big you are as well. A person's heart beats about 65 to 75 times a minutes. This is called the beat rate. With each beat, the heart pumps about 60 to 70 milliliters of blood. If you multiply the two values together, you find that the cardiovascular output is just about four to five liters per minute. Can you guess how much blood an individual has? If you exercise, your heart rate increases, and it decreases when you rest. Your body has a remarkable way of knowing just how much blood should be flowing to properly distribute the nutrients it needs. The primary means of controlling cardiovascular output is by controlling the beat rate with hormones. One, called acetylcholine , acts to decrease beat rate, when you are resting or sleeping. Another, called norepinephrine, increases the rate at which your heart beats, when you are active or excited. The balance of these two hormones helps to keep the rate of your blood flow just right. Had a good conversation today with Gary Potter. Gary is a retired PhD at Texas A&M and has been training performance horses for decades. He pretty much believes that spleen dumping is a red herring as do I. He is very excited however about exploring glycogen depletion and re-loading. Gary registered today in FaCT Forum and tomorrow can set up his profile. It's interesting that since Mohawk 2009 there has been limited input. Maybe we had best just hold onto our hats. j | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 153 Registered: 07-2008 |
This is a scary thread. For a racehorse nutritionist however it is a key to the warehouse. If for example I was running Purina, we would have myriad projects going on to refine the questions and find some answers. In the mean time we are developing a line of products and basic protocols to help employ depletion and re-loading glycogen ideas for training and pre-racing horses. | ||
| Binmar_racing Intermediate Member Username: Binmar_racing Post Number: 16 Registered: 07-2008 |
Joe, I assume the racehorse nutritionist/Purina reference was intended to spark my involvement in this thread; unfortunately, it is going to be more a backfire than a spark. This is a very scary thread indeed, but not for the same reasoning as Joe. As an equine nutritionist that has approach the topic of “glycogen loading in horses” from a scientific approach. (and not the “I fed it to a horse and he ran big” approach) it does not work and it is extremely dangerous. Dr Frape, a world-renowned equine nutritionist summarised it clearly: “Glycogen loading is of benefit to many long distance human athletes, but no advantage has yet been established for this practice in horses, and without modification it could render them subject to laminitis and endotoxaemia” So as a horseman that is passionate about his horses and racing, this thread profoundly scares me because it sets the precedent of winning, at all cost, over the welfare of the horse. Having said that, I do believe in ‘glycogen repletion’. Furthermore, the racehorse industry in general does a horrible job at glycogen repletion. Purina’s interests and products are intended for glycogen repletion. As in, after the race or workout, but no one (except for me) gets excited by this and very few listen since it is after the race. The perfect example of this would be horseman that still feed cracked corn and rolled barley. These cracked corn feeders do NEED a glycogen source for repletion and not as a glycogen loader. When these cracked corn feeders supplement pre-race carbo-loaders they are actually not glycogen loading but glycogen repleting the horse. Even though these terms sound similar they are scientifically extremely different. I have the utmost respect and personally know Dr Potter and I am sure his excitement lies in glycogen repletion and not in glycogen loading in the true human definition of glycogen loading. For proper glycogen loading you need a carbohydrate free diet and this will kill our horses. How badly do we want to win??? I personally am not willing to go there. | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 363 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks for the great input. And your final comments are profoundly stimulating. And that is it gives evidence to the need for appropriate vocabulary to be used at all times. In fact, this is why we begin all lour lectures with a discussion about the vocabulary being used in the talk, with specific reference to misused terms that are historically based, and often inaccurately used. I should think everyone reading this agrees wholeheartedly, that the horse's well-being is most important. In fact, we emphasized that at the REPS course on a number of occasions: Health, Development of Sustainable Speed, and Success at Races, in that order of importance. I will defend Joe in the fact that I believe he has Health as a priority, and was simply using terms he had heard passed around, without the same definition of "glycogen loading" as quoted in the most recent post. So, let us stop using the term glycogen "loading". Lets instead understand that the idea is to have the muscles and liver maintained with enough glycogen to supply energy for the event being planned. Whether it be a long training session, or an all out race for the money. In humans, the general public often refer to the ingestion of carbs in the period before a race as "carb loading", whether they were depleted prior to that moment or not. Hence the widely held events of "carb loading dinners" hosted at many events. Very few of these athletes would have been through a period period of low carb or zero carb diets before the "big night", yet it is still called "carb loading", for lack of a different term. Repletion, sounds like it comes from the word to replenish (to fill again). However the true definition I have found is somewhat different...and that is: re·ple·tion (r-plshn) n. 1. The condition of being fully supplied or completely filled. 2. A state of excessive fullness. So, yes, let us use the word glycogen repletion. To be fully topped up to a state of excessive fullness, without the dangerous need of starvation prior to the event in question. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 154 Registered: 07-2008 |
ANDREW, THE SAFETY AND WELL-BEING OF OUR HORSES IS ALWAYS NUMBER ONE, SO YOU, MARC AND I ARE ABSOLUTELY ON THE SAME PAGE IN THAT REGARD. I TOO AM THANKFUL FOR MARC’S INPUT AS IT BROADENS OUR PERSPECTIVE. PERHAPS THIS IS FIRST A DEFINITION ISSUE AND YES GLYCOGEN REPLETION IS AN IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION. THAT IS NOT TO SAY HOWEVER THAT REFINING THE PROCESS OF LOADING GLYCOGEN AS A PRE-RACE ACTIVITY HAS LITTLE MERIT. IT IS ALSO QUITE POSSIBLE THERE ARE NO HARMFUL EFFECTS TO OUR HORSES. REPLENISHING GLUCOSE/GLYCOGEN/CARBOHYDRATES AFTER A RACE OR INTENSE WORKOUT IS VERY IMPORTANT. ADDING EXTRA CARBS BEFORE A RACE CAN ALSO HAVE VALUE. WE HAVE A LOT TO LEARN. MARC-ANDRE Joe, I assume the racehorse nutritionist/Purina reference was intended to spark my involvement in this thread; unfortunately, it is going to be more a backfire than a spark. SPARK? BACKFIRE? WHATEVER! AT LEAST WE ARE HEARING FROM YOU AND STARTING SOME DIALOGUE ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT SEGMENT. This is a very scary thread indeed, but not for the same reasoning as Joe. I’M IMPRESSED THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO INTERPRET MY REASONS EVEN THOUGH NOT STATED. As an equine nutritionist that has approach the topic of “glycogen loading in horses” from a scientific approach. (and not the “I fed it to a horse and he ran big” approach) it does not work and it is extremely dangerous. REGARDLESS OF THE WORLD IN WHICH YOU LIVE MOST RACEHORSE TRAINERS WILL CLAIM TO BE NUTRITIONISTS. Dr Frape, a world-renowned equine nutritionist summarised it clearly: “Glycogen loading is of benefit to many long distance human athletes, but no advantage has yet been established for this practice in horses, and without modification it could render them subject to laminitis and endotoxaemia” DR FRAPE’S 655 PAGE BOOK “EQUINE NUTRITION AND FEEDING” IS FILLED WITH HIS OPINIONS. So as a horseman that is passionate about his horses and racing, this thread profoundly scares me because it sets the precedent of winning, at all cost, over the welfare of the horse. MARC, “WINNING AT ALL COST” IS NOT OUR PRECEDINT AS IT HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE THE FIRST HORSE RACE. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN WINNING AT ALL COSTS. Having said that, I do believe in ‘glycogen repletion’. Furthermore, the racehorse industry in general does a horrible job at glycogen repletion. WE AGREE. Purina’s interests and products are intended for glycogen repletion. As in, after the race or workout, but no one (except for me) MARC YOU ARE NOT AN ISLAND gets excited by this and very few listen since it is after the race. YOU MAY BE SURPRISED JUST HOW MANY TRAINERS ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT POST-RACE TREATMENTS. The perfect example of this would be horseman that still feed cracked corn and rolled barley. FOR CENTURIES HORSES HAVE BEEN SURVIVING AND THRIVING ON CORN, OATS AND BARLEY These cracked corn feeders do need a glycogen source for repletion and not as a glycogen loader. MARC, ACTUALLY EXTRA CRACKED CORN IS AN EXCELLENT GLYCOGEN PRE-LOADER BY ITSELF EVEN IF WE ARE FEEDING PURINA. When these cracked corn feeders supplement pre-race carbo-loaders they are actually not glycogen loading but glycogen repleting the horse. WOULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN? Even though these terms sound similar they are scientifically extremely different. I have the utmost respect and personally know Dr Potter and I am sure his excitement lies in glycogen repletion and not in glycogen loading in the true human definition of glycogen loading. I TOO RESPECT DR POTTER AND AM HOPEFUL HE IS READING THIS. WITH GARY PERHAPS OUR GREATEST DISCUSSION WILL REST WITH FAT VERSUS PROTEIN. For proper glycogen loading you need a carbohydrate free diet ARE YOU SURE OF THAT? and this will kill our horses. MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT EXTRA GLYCOGEN OR THE PROCESS OF DRAINING AND IMMEDIATELY REFILLING GLYCOGEN WILL NOT KILL A HORSE. LAMINITIS AND ENDOTOXAEMIA ARE SERIOUS CONCERNS AND DISCUSSION OF WHICH MUST BE ENTERED INTO THIS THREAD. How badly do we want to win??? I personally am not willing to go there. NOR AM I. HOW CAN WE BETTER UNDERSTAND THE PERFORMANCE VALUE OF SAFELY USING GLYCOGEN LOADING AS A PRE-RACE BEFORE OUR COMPETION DOES? HOW DO WE GET PURINA TO DEDICATE A BROADER FOCUS ON GLYCOGEN? HOW’S YOUR KNEE DOING? MY LEFT KNEE WAS REPLACED 18 DAYS AGO AND I HAVE A 99 DEGREES ON THE FLEX AND 9 DEGREES ON THE EXTENSION. THE ACRONYM PT IS NOT FOR PHYSICAL THERAPY IT IS FOR PHYSICAL TORTURE. PLEASE GIVE MY REGARDES TO BELINDA. |