| Author | Message | ||
     Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1330 Registered: 04-2006 |
I try since now more than 3 month to find some info on reasons and ideas, why and when teh spleen dumping kicks in. 2 main questions : a)Is it a hormonal produced reaction , which may kick in just based on pure anticipaction of a stress or race. b ) is it a CGm metabolic controlled system , whio kicks in , as soon there is some risk on "running low " on O2 situations, and to be able to keep tghe flight you get the help of this great " additional " turbo. Does anybody has some more info I miss Here a stupid short thought. If it is anticpation , than in real nature, that would be not optimal ,as the attack from apredator was not seen ahead, and it would actually not work. If it is stuimmulated by a certain O2 demand in teh working muscles over a CGM type of a reaction, than you would be able to initiate the flight by first going oxygen independent in teh extremity muscles , and as the intensity will be very high , the HR very high and the demand for the oxygen dependent Heart muscles very high as well, the spleen dumping may be triggered over a certain O2 demand level for vital organs. I try to work on a simple idea of spleen dumping timing system. As the spleen is dumping more RBC ( much more ) we should have some how some very clear biomarkers showing the trend in a step type increased test. I had that specific question put forward to Leonie with the datas of one of her interesting testst. Here oncemore the numbers : Time Mph Slope Degree Stride Frequency for 30 seconds Heart Rate 1:00 4 2 1:00 8.5 2 44 147 1:00 8.5 4 44 158 1:00 8.5 5 44 149 1:00 8.5 6 44 151 1:00 8.5 7 44 159 1:00 8.5 4 44 138 1:00 15 4 53 189 1:00 18 4 55 208 1:00 21 4 57 221 see the step 8.5 4 44 138 and compare with 8.5 4 44 but HR 158. Why is that happen here . Mistake or sign of something more ? | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1331 Registered: 04-2006 |
Ohh I just got an e- mail from a reader with a link on warming up . Here to read : "Time Mph Slope Degree Stride Frequency for 30 seconds Heart Rate Warming up and cooling down Importance of getting the body ready to compete and letting it unwind slowly after exertion By Kenneth L. Marcella, D.V.M. Elite human athletes devote great attention to detail in developing warm-up and cool-down strategies before and after competition. This devotion to detail illustrates the importance these practices for overall performance. One would expect volumes of good research to exist that provide insight into the best methods to warm-up both humans and horses for specific events and the appropriate cool-down routines to use, but, surprisingly, such information does not exist. This may explain why there is no consensus as to the best way to warm up or cool down horses competing in various events and why some trainers pay close attention to their pre- and post-exercise routines, while others seem to all but disregard this aspect of competition. “Truthfully, little is known as to the specific benefits of warming up horses before exercise, and while more research has been done on humans, even human exercise physiologists are divided in their opinions as to its benefits,” said David Freeman, Ph.D., animal scientist and nutritionist at the Oklahoma State University Cooperative Extension Service. Limited research in horses shows that warming up increases energy availability and use, but these benefits generally are seen only in those horses that do aerobic work. Anaerobic exercise, such as spring racing, barrel racing, pole bending, and cutting, may not see similar benefits. Racehorses, elite jumpers, and other equine athletes whose competition times last under two to three minutes also may not exercise aerobically enough to benefit from specific warm-up protocols. Freeman pointed out that good research does show that five minutes of work at 60% to 70% maximum heart rate (160 to 170 beats per minute) causes the spleen to contract and to dump a significant amount of red blood cells into the circulation. This splenic contraction increases the red blood cells available to the body and increases the horse’s ability to carry oxygen to the muscles, which ultimately provides a performance edge. Yet, as Freeman explained, “The spleen is under endocrine control and it may contract (and increase the concentration of red blood cells) from the sheer anticipation of performance; and thus, a warm-up may not be needed.” Anyone watching runners being walked around before post time, endurance horses awaiting an early-morning mass start, or an eventer pacing in the start box will easily notice excited horses anticipating exercise and an see that anticipation may well be all the warm-up needed to increase red blood cells. Yet, research provides more evidence or warm-up benefits. Warm-up benefits Warming up a horse prior to exercise allows for greater utilization of fatty acids in early work so that less lactic acid is produced in subsequent work. Lower lactic acid levels, according to research in horses and humans, leads to less fatigue and, specifically in horses, fewer injuries. Fewer muscle, ligament, and tendon injuries are recorded in horses working after appropriate warm-up periods. It is felt that the increase in temperature in these tissues of even a few degrees produced by warming up increases the rate of oxygen exchange and the speed of chemical reactions necessary for energy-producing muscle function. “These warmed-up horses also see increased range of motion; increased stride extension and gait coordination; and decreased likelihood of tears, sprains, and strains,” Freeman said. While there is some debate as to the exact benefits derived from warming up, even more debate exists as to what constitutes a proper warm-up. Hilary Clayton, B.V.M.S., Ph.D., a veterinary researcher and holder of the Mary Anne McPhail dressage chair in equine sports medicine and Michigan State University, addresses the proper warm-up in her book Conditioning Sport Horses. She concludes that each warm-up should be part basic physiological conditioning and part sport-specific. “An effective warm-up has the dual benefits of enhancing performance and reducing the risk of injury,” Clayton wrote. She continued that the typical warm-up should start with the horse walking on a loose rein, with the length of this walk adapted to the individual horse and its recent level of activity. Following this, the exercise intensity is increased to an active trot or canter. The key word, according to Clayton, is “active” because this part of the warm-up must work the muscles hard enough to increase circulation, to warm up the muscle fibers, and to encourage splenic contraction. The choice of gait is dependent on the individual. Some horses with stiff muscles or with prior injuries and scar tissue or fibrosis are better served with very active warm-ups, including fast canter or gallop work to initially stretch out tight body areas. Then these horses often can be brought back to slower gaits and successfully warmed up if they are allowed to extend and stretch initially. Other horses will benefit more from the traditional approach of a long, low walk, then trot, then canter. After five to ten minutes of this physiological conditioning, Clayton suggests sport-specific and sometimes “individual-specific” warm-up should begin. For example, racehorses may be cantered or galloped slowly prior to approaching the starting gate. Some horses need a lot of activity to help them focus and calm down, and they should be worked a bit harder in warm-ups. Other nervous but quiet horses need to be calmed and reassured, so their warm-up may include less active work and more repetitive or routine tasks such as walking spirals or tight turns. An astute trainer will learn which horse needs what type of warm-up and what practices to avoid for specific horses. Some horses may need a warm-up that does not cause them to become so excited that they expend too much energy and “wash out” or not deliver their peak performance, or overly quiet horses may need a sharper warm-up. Horses also require mental focusing and, as creatures of habit, they respond to routines. Warming up a horse in the same pattern and sequence will help reduce stress, avoid nervousness, and aid in getting that equine athlete to focus on the task at hand. Even if the facility is unfamiliar to your horse, as you begin your warm-up, your horse will tall into step with each part of a learned routine, bringing it closer and closer to competition. “Horses respond to consistency and repetition in training,” Freeman said. “A consistently done warm-up may provide a cue for mental preparedness of an impending performance.” Cool-down Just as important to performance is the post-exercise cool-down, yet this activity also is the subject of debate. Many times a cool-down is impossible because of immediate post-exercise requirements, such as the successful racehorse that must visit the winner’s circle and be photographed before being walked and cooled out. Here, science is a bit more unified. Most research shows that active cooling down (maintaining a slow trot or canter for five to ten minutes) is exceedingly more beneficial than passive cooling-down (simply walking or standing still). Most jockeys are aware of this, so they lope their mounts back to the awaiting groom near the finish line after a race. “The objective of the cool-down period is a progressive reduction in exercise intensity allowing for a gradual redistribution of blood flow, enhanced lactate removal from muscles, and a reduction of body heat through convection and evaporation (both of which are aided by movement),” Clayton wrote. Most horses are not cooled down as actively as is recommended, and residual lactate might be a factor that adversely would affect performance if the hrose were required to compete again soon after maximal exercise. Fortunately for Thoroughbred racehorses, this is not a factor. Horses should be stretched following exercise to both release muscle tension and reduce soreness and to be able to pick up on any possible injuries that might require attention. A complete and proper cool-down will result in a horse that is cooled, quiet, and free from injuries and, in Clayton’s words, “finished with the day’s work, relaxed in mind and body.” | ||
| Leonie Junior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Juerg, see the step 8.5 4 44 138 and compare with 8.5 4 44 but HR 158. Why is that happen here . Mistake or sign of something more ? I see this type of heart rate response fairly regularly with horses in training, both on the racetrack and on the treadmill. The amount of increase between the 138 HR and the 158 HR is probably because the machine elevated. If you look at the chart again, she was all ready on a 2 degree slope for 2 minutes while walking and jogging before it elevated. When a horse is nervously distracted I will see a much larger increase in HR than that and I don’t believe that a 158 HR is enough to contract the spleen. Regarding the article by Kenneth Marcella, D.V.M. Warming up properly before a race or a work is very beneficial if it includes a short burst of speed, 1/8th to 3/16th of a mile at racing speed before going to the gates or beginning their work. I believe that this type of warm up forces the spleen to contract completely and the blood will be fully oxygenated before the race or work begins. As far as I know, the spleen contracts fully at HR’s over 200 BPM. I have found through experience that when doing interval training, the second and third interval is much better executed by the horse than the first one. Also, I never walk a horse to cool it out, I always jog it for about 6 to 10 minutes on the track or treadmill post work or race, in order to pump any byproducts of anaerobic metabolism back through their systems. Consequently, my horses are not stiff and sore the next morning when they walk out of their stalls. I will also jog them the next day after a race or hard work and give them the following day off to rest. I ice their legs for 20 minutes, post work or race, in order to stop any micro-damage that may be occurring. | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 202 Registered: 04-2006 |
Leonie, I think you missed the point of Juerg's question. If you look at the numbers again, you will see that the first time your horse was paced at 8.5 / 4/ 44, he reached a HR of 158, whereas later in the test, the same stimulus stimulated the horse only to reach HR of 138. Juerg is suggesting some physiologic explanation for a 20 beat difference under the same stimulus, and that this could possibly be due to spleen dumping that occured after the 8.5 / 7 /44 step where the HR was 159. If this is not the reason, then one must try to explain the dramatic difference in HR between two identical steps. This pattern matches the same note Leonie made about her horses doing better intervals later in the practice, compared to the first one. | ||
| Leonie Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, Are you suggesting that the reason is that the spleen dumped at that low of a heart rate? I think it is more about the horse being more comfortable with the exercise after inclining to 7 degrees and then relaxing by going down. It would be great to know when the spleen actually contracts, can possibly do this with my treadmill and indwelling catheters to check blood gas? I don't believe the spleen dumps at such a low heart rate but I could be wrong. | ||
| Leonie Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 13 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, The pattern does not match the same note I made about my horses doing better intervals later in the practice because the intervals are going a much greater speeds and definately over 200 HR. A 158 heart rate is just going aerobically and rather slow, not even a 3 minute mile for the average horse. A spleen contracting at that low of a heart rate would be because the horse spooked mostly, which you would see as a heart rate spike also. | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 203 Registered: 04-2006 |
I am not suggesting the spleen dumped at HR of 158, though it is theoretically possible based on some of the research that noted efforts of 70%-85% could lead to spleen dunping. What I am suggesting is that there is a physiologic reason why the horse was at 158 HR the first time, but was only at 138 HR the second time around. Saying the "horse was more comfortable with the exercise after inclining to 7 degrees and then relaxing by going down" is exactly what we are commenting on when we notice these HR inconsistencies. But it is explaining this in terms of physiology that we are trying to do, rather than lumping it as "relaxing", and not looking deeper. The pattern is the same as you not in your intervals sessions, even though the intensities are different. That is, improved HR at same speeds, or improved speeds at same HR after an initial "warm-up". The initial HR at 8.5 / 4 / 44 of 158 MIGHT be due to the release of epinephrine in a spooked horse, but one would have to note that during the test, and possibly explain what spooked the horse during that interval while having no effect on any of the other steps of the test. We are over analyzing a single test, but this is what we do to look for trends, and then explain the things that initially do not make sense...or do make sense if we understand the physiology a bit better. If you look at other test results, do you notice a similar pattern, or is this the only example of a high initial HR followed by a drop in HR at the same intensity later in the test? | ||
| Leonie Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, I have seen these kinds of spikes in their heart rates before. Actually it is very common. Whenever a horse gets distracted it happens, at what levels of elevation is dependent on their distraction. I usually ignore theses spikes for the most part because they always come back down quickly. A horse can look around and see something in the room that was not in the same place as it was yesterday and have a spike, or an elevation, like this. I still believe that her spike was because the machine elevated, which can startle them for a moment when they are relaxed and into their exercise. Not sure if you can read more into that. By the way, using heart rate monitors on my horses since 1982 I did not learn until 1992 that the units are very sensitive to noise and vibration, at least the older ones were. Polar tells me that their newer ones are not as sensitive, but I have not found that to be the case, so far. Electrode placement is also key. I had to develope my own surcingle in order to get accurate readings on the treadmill which have been verified by doing an ECG in conjunction. I am now looking forward to receiving my Televet 100 which is a bluetooth heart rate telemetric ECG machine using up to 5 leads. Two of my clients all ready use them and it has rave reviews so far. Nice software and easy to keep records. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1332 Registered: 04-2006 |
Leonie , how about that question : Watch the numbers : 1. 8.5 4 44 HR 158 explanation change of incline spooked the horse ? 2. 8.5 5 44 HR 149 did this time the elevation change " de- spooked the horse ? watch the trend 3. 8.5 6 44 HR 151 which would be a very normal increase in HR due to elevation no spooking here ? 4. 8.5 7 44 HR 159 normal increase no spooky ? 5. 8.5 drop to 4 44 HR 138 extremly " de - spooky " trend. Hmmm interesting mind set . Well here a suggestion . Problem in any test in humans is , that using only 1 min step length will " Spooke " a lot of humans as well, as the functional reaction in one minute is not very stable. different reasons. Functional reactions in humans can be multi folds. Some will react in a increase in a step intensity over just simply higher HR ( neure reaction ) as the higher HR will increase CO by the same SV. Other will react by keeping the HR ( lag of HR ) and increase contraction strength so SV goes up as an increase in EF % so CO up to covere the higher effort . Other people will react with a stronger muscle work which can increase the EDV ( blood return and therefor based on Frank Starling the SV = higher CO . other can decrease the LVET and therefor improve CCT and = CO up. Other will change the respiratory pattern by breathing faster or depper, which will change the EDV again . As you can see in humans , there are many reasons why we would see a change. If a horse is spooky , than that would be over hormonal functional reaction. Simple solution . Make 3 - 4 minutes steps , so the spooky ness will be eliminated by real info on potential physiological reactions. Thought. It would not make sense from a Evolutuion point of view to wait with a spleen dumping till youreach intensities of 200 HR. It would make sense, that this reaction kicks in much earlier, as it takes simply time for O2 to move from lungs to blood to mitichondria to ATOP production and if it would take so long to kick in you would have a much less chance of survival. Looking from outside, and this is no offense, as your answer would be pretty standard from an experienced human trainer as well. Using just a simple answer ) spooky ) and that's it seems to me a great way of potentially missing opportunities to look for some physiological explanation above and beyond spooky of a Horse. As I lined out the question would be : Why is the horse only spooky by an elevation change from 2 to 4 and not from 5 to 6 or from 6 to 7 or : Why is it " de- spooky " from 7 - 4 which is the most extrteme change in the pattern and here it actually drops his HR into his " pants " due to de- spooky " hmm need somewhat a better explanation there and again one way is giving the "spooky " phenomena miore time to settle dow by simply make longer steps in an incline test. 1 min steps at least in humans are pretty worth less if we lokk from the point of potential functional reations and what teh body will do as a functional reaction. Depending on the traiing you do in humans, they will react diffferent. Wit either Frequency , respiration, muscle action and the above mentioned hemodynamic reactions. Just a suggestion from outside. Juerg | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1338 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo Leonie or any horse person> I look for a full VO2 max testing data collection from a horse VO2 test. I need to see : HR, VE ( total air ventilated ) RF ( Respiratory freqoency , ) FeO2 % or true O2 % If available FeCO2 % or true CO2 production. Kcal / h if the equipment did the calculation and if we have CO2 and Fe O2 the RER or sometimes called RQ ( respiratory quotient. This in connection with the performance ( intensity steps in mph or what ever unit was taken and if possible either breath by breath numbers or averages of 15 seconds if the step test where only 1 min steps or 30 sec average if there were 2 min steps and 1 min average when they did 3 min steps. Either offfer the data here on teh forum or email it to factquestions@hotmail.com Thanks so much Juerg | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2083 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo again and back to the intriguing question of Spleen dumping. I am just finished in a conference here in Vancouver and will have in a few week a very intriguing new Toy. Here what we will be able to do. It is one more piece in our puzzle to find the weakest link and body reactions. 1. With The VO2 equipment we actually test respiratory information and gas exchange. The respiratory information is very specific in the way that we have : VE, RF and therefor TV . The gas exchange will give us FeO2 % or in simple terms the amount of O2 the client used for a certain task. What we don't know: Where was the O2 used ? - In the cardiac system - by the respiratory system. - moved into the tissue and or is still on Hb. - from the loco-motor system. The VE in the respiratory testing will give us the trend in the workload of this system The CO ( cardiac output ) is the info from the Cardiac system.( Physio Flow ) Now the next step is to see, how much O2 is in the actual tissue. and how much does the O2 drops in the tissue so how much " deoxygenation" takes place. In humans we use either simple muscle contraction as a way to reduce blood flow and therefor the muscle will take from less blood more O2 by a given workload and the deoxygenation will go up as in the same time the O2 sat blood will drop.The easiest way is a complete stop of blood flow to show this effect. Now what does this has to do with spleen dumping: 1. Even with a very strong reduction of blood flow due to muscle contraction we will have O2 rich blood there and there is for a relative long time O2 available 7 - 9 nib before we see the O2 line disappearing. - Now if we suddenly let go the muscle contraction we see a very fast increase in the O2 rich blood and a drop in deoxygenated blood. This is basically a " spleen " dumping. We give to a relative low level o blood volume a sudden increase in more blood. The picture we produce on the screen is very clear. Now we can potentially do the same on horses but with a real spleen dumping. As the spleen releases a big amount of blood suddenly we could potentially see that on the screen with a very slick and simple method. This would allow horse trainers a perfect timing and a better inside view in the race or training ideas for an optimal blood situation for an optimal training or race result. Resp. you may train below spleen dumping so less blood volume would possibly create a lower O2 sat and trigger a better EPO situation for the higher training sessions and races. Here a picture of a theoretical spleen dumping action.  You can see the sudden increase of "fresh " blood red , and the drop of deoxy. blood blue, as soon the occlusion was stopped and the blood could move suddenly back in. The green line is the total volume so you can as well see that but in a spleen dumping this must be much more clear and incredible interesting. How do we do this testing now in humans. It is with NIRS method. ( near infrared spectroscopy ) the equipment we will use now is the size of a credit card but somewhat thicker. You just put it for example on the hind leg muscle belly by shaving a small part of the size and stick it on there or under a belt or what ever the smart horse trainer comes up with. The sensor is wireless and can sent in a free field over about 800 - 1000 m. so on a track you have all the info. You can either store it or see it live on the computer. Easy to use on a horse on a treadmill as we do this on humans as well.We did some testing today a cross a huge conference exhibition room with Physio Flow and PortaMon and had no problem with connection during a bike session. Here the "credit card size tool :  For Horse trainers , visit our FaCT test thread as you can see, how we try to close some of the many questions in the human training puzzle. The pic is basically real size. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 113 Registered: 07-2008 |
Wow! Double Wow! I think MY spleen just dumped. So it's a PortaMon. Discovered by Juerg Feldman. HedaMon. Here's a few of many questions: So it stores and/or sends for live viewing in a computer? 800 to 1000 m? On any computer? Is there a dongle to receive the signal? What's the cost? J | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2008 |
HI Juerg, Interesting device, how much does this unit cost? I just finished re-reading the spleen dumping thread and found some interesting points and comments. You said something in regards to horses spooking and de-spooking trends. Horses, unlike humans, cannot reason, therefore what we see is response to external stimuli. When exercise first commences on the treadmill, their heart rates will be higher for the same intensity than after they have gone past those points and come back down such as in my example you quoted in this thread. I believe that this is a conditioned response to the stimuli of starting exercise. This happens almost every time with every horse when I think back on my numbers. I have also found that horses will reach HR intensities to 200 in a very short time, almost instantly, with the proper stimuli, such as an adrenaline release. I have had horses jogging on the racetrack all fired up with a heart rate of around 190 from the second that they stepped onto the track. I believe that horses can run very fast for a period, without their spleen dumping first, in order to get away from danger. If their spleen were dumping at very low heart rates, then it would be constantly dumping when they just moved around at a trot from grazing area to grazing area, or by playing, or by breeding. It would be very interesting to use the Portamon to verify our theories with horses. Leonie | ||
| Herb Board Administrator Username: Herb Post Number: 70 Registered: 04-2006 |
Great info Leonnie and yes it makes lot's of sense. In humans 90 % of people will show as well a higher HR than expected. I am working on a PP for a school program and will show it on here. The very interesting part is, that very good trained humans don't respond like that. They actually have a lower HR than expected ( This is the LLL positive and negative) In humans we see why no as we use the Physio Flow as a non invasive info on stroke volume and cardiac output. The start beating harder so CO is up more than needed and the HR has not to respond. In humans you have as well starting HR at the start line from over LBP as they are standing as a potential reaction on hormone release in advance to the "fight" The Porta MON shows in small info on humans an initial increase in blood volume Why and from where. There are as well very small ( compared to a horse ) blood storage in organs like spleen and so on. And there are many blood vessels "empty" under resting conditions. What we hope is to see now, how a human muscle reacts and whether we see trends in endurance athletes versus strength athletes in all of this reactions. Stay tuned in the human threads. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2092 Registered: 04-2006 |
Short answer to some above questions. The PorteMon is the size of a lactate pro analyzer ( pretty much the same as it will fit in the same case. There are different ways for transmission with Blue toes similar antennas. They fit as all blue toes in the private small lap top as well as the soft ware. The reach is easy 100 m with no problems and up to 800 +- meter if there are no objects in between for direct contact. Here a pic how it would look on a quadriceps on a human  It is simply fixed comfortable on the muscles you like to test. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2093 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here fixed on another body part.  This are pics from testing from a leading UK University. They are older equipments as our PorteMon is even smaller and no wires as in this model on the pic, so much easier to fix and no limitation in motions. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 116 Registered: 07-2008 |
Good stuff. Probably the best positioning on a horse is around it's neck. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 118 Registered: 07-2008 |
So I Google PortaMon and find a company in California who sells small portable monitors. They know nothing about blood volume and the amount of oxygen in blood. What's the deal with your Porta Mon? | ||
| Admin Moderator Username: Admin Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2004 |
Hey Joe, You need more selective key words when using Google. Try Portamon NIRS. (near infrared spectroscopy) Or just go to http://www.artinis.com/ or http://www.fact-canada.com/#Portamon Herb | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2222 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here an add on on Spleen dumping from another source, which does not help to solve many questions at all. Question. The horse spleen is regulated over some hormonal pathways( endocrine), so as Leonie mentioned Adrenalin my be the cause of spleen dumping . This would mean as Adrenalin elevates as well the HR, whether there is a feed back loop there, so that a certain HR will cause, coupled with a certain SV a certain CO. If that CO is too low for proper feeding the heart of the horse itself, than this would cause an O2 problem with an increase of H+. This would race the question , whether the short "Hypoxia" situation with a change in H+ could feedback as a trigger for spleen dumping. Now by testing the baseline in a resting horse and than either increasing the HR without "stress" and checking the change in Blood volume in the muscle and or assessing the O2 HB and O2 MB would be very interesting , as the increase in blood as well will increase the red blood cell situation. And therefor as well the O2 situation intracellular ( perhaps ). As mentioned before , the second test is a short spooky action of a resting horse , without motion in the barn and testing HR reaction and O2 and blood volume flow in the same muscles and compare. Here why it is confusing for an outsider reading into articles from insider. Dave Freeman, animal scientist and equine specialist: Oklahoma State University, Oklahoma Cooperative Extension Service. Press Release: 1998 “Research with human athletes suggests that warming up can improve running speed, flexibility and strength of movement in some parts of the body. However, reaction time to a stimulus does not appear to be affected. While speed in sprints and distance runs may be improved, agility is not. "Limited research in horses suggests that performance improvement by a warm-up session may result from increased energy availability and use," Freeman said. "The research suggests most benefits are to horses performing aerobic-type work." There are several ways that warming up might increase the performance of a horse. Freeman said much of the discussion must be based on evidence from practices substantiated by trainers because there have been few research studies performed in this area. "Research has shown five minutes of work at 60-70 percent maximum (heart rates above 160 to 170 beats per minute) elicits the spleen to dump red blood cells into circulation," Freeman said. Now this is interesting , as the 156 HR we discussed above and the potential of spleen dumping from our outside observation is pretty close to the suggestion from this insider. Nevertheless the suggestion from Leonie makes sense as well. So ? Well there is more research needed , as it seem that much of the discussion is based on who say's what but very little real live back ups here. Well sounds familiar in the human training ideas. Now here a thought. A resting horse has much less blood moving in the system and has the potential to increase it over some mechanism ( Adrenalin and perhaps others ) That means the volume of blood is reduced, similar as when we make in a human an artificial arterial occlusion. Now as soon we open the occlusion there is immediately a much higher volume of blood again circulating in the system . So in a horse the spleen is the " arterial " occlusion and suddenly this will be gone and as the blood is release the amount will increase very fast. So if you look the reaction after an arterial occlusion in a human you see a very nice trend. The question : Would we see the same picture in a horse. I may over the holiday time try to get in contact with a good friend and horse trainer and see , whether we can do some small testing with the PorteMon on his horses on this specific question. Interested horse readers go to PorteMon NIRS and see the arterial occlusion test and see the reaction at the moment , where the blood was "dumped" back to the occluded area. Have a great Holiday time Juerg | ||
| Smac New member Username: Smac Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2009 |
Should a race horses spleen be dumped multiple times a week with exercise? Does this dumping of the spleen increase the horses overall blood volume over time? | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 357 Registered: 04-2006 |
I think the real answer is nobody knows. To date, the physiologic effects of spleen dumping have only been estimated by looking at the overall performance, and it has not been possible to determine the effects on the different physiologic systems during exercise. In humans there is new equipment available to help determine what happens to cardiac volume and vascular resistance with different interventions, but so far, we do not have similar data for horses. The answer for now will have to be to try to stimulate spleen dumping in a routine fashion, and watch how the horse responds over a period of a few weeks. From a FaCT perspective, we may look at the spleen dumping, as a possible means of increasing venous return to the heart, which might stimulate larger end diastolic volumes, and potentially stimulate cardiac stroke volume, if the intensity of the exercise is maintained at a speed that maximizes the stroke volume. Then we would repeat the same session for a period of time, and retest LBP to see if the expected changes are apparent. In this case, we would expect faster running at lower HR, and possibly a drop in LBP heart rate, as surrogate markers for an increased Stroke Volume. So, we create an idea, test for baseline measurements, including all available information (HR, speed, lactate, resp rate) set up some training scenarios, and and repeat the testing to see if it worked. Sorry, no clear answers that I know of...yet. | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 43 Registered: 07-2008 |
People have said in the past that the spleen needs to be dumped totally on a regular basis in order to keep the blood cells from becoming spiculated. Dumping the spleen regularly does not increase the horse's blood volume over time. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 138 Registered: 07-2008 |
Leonie, you say... "Dumping the spleen regularly does not increase the horse's blood volume over time." Are you absolutely sure? "Spiculated"? Now there's one for your Funk and Wagnals. A Google search found http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/450053 0/description.html. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 139 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, Great post! That's an interesating study you suggest and possibly can be somehow integrated into the Maine Project especially once we get the Bio Harness operating and of course the PortoMon would be another powerful possibility. I'm putting together a post for the Maine thread. Lots of good steps have been taken and maybe we're about ready to rock n roll. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2385 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here some add on : " work at 60% to 70% maximum heart rate (160 to 170 beats per minute) causes the spleen to contract and to dump a significant amount of red blood cells into the circulation. This splenic contraction increases the red blood cells available to the body and increases the horse’s ability to carry oxygen to the muscles, which ultimately provides a performance edge. Yet, as Freeman explained, “The spleen is under endocrine control and it may contract (and increase the concentration of red blood cells) from the sheer anticipation of performance; and thus, a warm-up may not be needed.” and a good point he makes : " “Truthfully, little is known as to the specific benefits of warming up horses before exercise, and while more research has been done on humans, even human exercise physiologists are divided in their opinions." I will show on the human forum some very interesting case situation on " warming up" Yes also in humans you may have some hormonal responses 9 Adrenalin ) pre start activities. We can see this in the increase in heart rate. What we not know is, whether this increase in heart rate as well increases the O2 Hb or whether it may in fact reduce it. I will show some very intriguing infos on a live warm up in humans with info's we never knew from before but with a lot of indication , that teh pure increase in heart rate may actually do nothing in increase of blood volume and O2 Hb. The question is as well in horses, whether teh spleen dumping just simply increases the available blood to be ready to move it or whether it need as well a certain amount of respiratory and cardiac activity to actually load O2 on teh Rbc from teh spleen as an empty truck does not deliver a lot of goods. Just some thoughts we are following through now with the NIRS as we get better and better in assessing many common ideas in traiing processes in human we never really assessed carefully enough . | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 140 Registered: 07-2008 |
Juerg, As always thank you for taking of your valuable time to post in Horse Training and Racing. I wonder where and how Dr Freeman came up with his position that the spleen dumps at 160 to 170 BPM. At 60 to 70% of max hr, taking either 230 or 240 max hr, and the math does not compute at 160 to 170. Furthermore Freeman uses a generic, one size fits all, max hr...wrong. My gut tells me his "opinion" is suspect. All that I know about spleen dumping is what I learned from Leonie and that is the spleen dumps at racing heart rate/speed in some where between 1/8 and 1/4 mile. For sure Juerg your posts in the human forum would be great to read and when you do so, please indicate their location. The biggest question that still has had no input is when the spleen dump occurs, how long does it take for that fresh oxygenated blood to completely circulate through the horse's system and back to the lungs for another treatment of oxygen? Re-reading Dr Freeman's statements and in his defense he DOES say "5 minutes' of work at 160 to 170 bpm. Hillary Clayton, who I have talked with in the past, does reinforce the need to keep whatever warm up consistent from race to race. Again PortoMon and maybe BioHarness could give us more information and maybe some of our stuff in the Maine project may shed some light. Until that time we may be sawing saw dust...don't know. If anyone has any input on blood circulation times in an exercising horse chime in please. I did find a short course on blood circulation at http://chestofbooks.com/animals/horses/S table-Management/The-Circulation-Of-The- Blood.html | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 141 Registered: 07-2008 |
Anyone who is interested in the Spleen Dumping thread could go back to the 1st post and read it all again. I think there are ideas that are being overlooked here. Maybe we are not sawing saw dust! | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 142 Registered: 07-2008 |
One of our vets C Rendell Shoop VMD remembers that at rest the horse's blood is fully circulated 3 times a minute. The spleen also contains veinal and arterial blood. The spleen merely holds a lot of blood, oxygenated and otherwise. So the whole spleen dumping idea is still open for a lot of discussion and may not amount to so much from a race performance perspective. I am asking Renny to join in this forum thread and provide specific input as he can. | ||
| Lordpat New member Username: Lordpat Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2009 |
I meant to post this on the "Spleen" discussion but I sent it to the "Maine Project" I really }want to get a general feedback on this question which has intrigued me for 25 years. Any and all critiques welcome Twenty five years ago I required all my horses to score down after the post parade at a 15 second 1/8 mile. Every horse that did this performed 85 to 90 percent better. Some, maybe the same, but non worse.Perhaps some horses didnt dump their spleens so sometimes I asked my drivers to score down twice to make sure the spleen dumped. I had more reasons than just spleen dumping. I wanted glycogen transfer to the mitochrondia along with oxygenated blood cells. I wanted the heart rate as close to maximum as possible so that when the horse went behind the gate it didnt have to raise its heart rate from 120 to 230, I wanted the heart rate at 180 or so, making it easier to reach the maximum racing heart rate intead of going into oxygen debt before the quarter mile mark. Also, I wanted the horse to know he was going racing!!. Some horses need to be excited and ready to race. One more thing, a horse is a glucose factory. I fed my horses 2 pounds of carbohydrate 2 hours before the race. In 45 minutes the carbs (preferably carrots) were liquid glucose due to the million year development of equine stomach acid that dissolves fibrous material quickly. The glucose is transferred to the liver as glycogen, the glucose(sugar) excites the insulin in the pancreas and sends the glycogen to the mitrochrondia. So, I want a spleen dump, fresh blood, BUT I want an elevated heart rate to pump the oxygen and glycogen to the cells as fast as possible, AND, I dont want my horse to have a blood sugar reading under 100 and be washed out. I want a blood sugar reading of 120 to 160 to be sure that the liver sends maximum glycogen. OK people, have at this message. I have fought this battle for 25 years with driver/trainers who were sure the horse couldnt finish the mile if scored down hard. All my horses finished stronger with the hard, but short, 1/8 mile score. Was it the excitement, the glycogen, the oxygen, the levated heart rate, or??? I look forward to your comments. Gaylord from the Maine group. | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 44 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Lordpat, The purpose of a warm-up is to adjust the body to transition from rest to exercise and thereby gain the dual benefits of enhanced performance and reduced risk of injury by a gradual increase in exercise intensity. An active warm-up increases body and muscle temperature by about 1 degree celsius as a result of the heat generated during muscular activity. warm-up improves tissue oxygenation, because epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline) released during warm-up increase respiratory rate, tidal volume, and heart rate, cause the spleen to contrat and release stored RBC into the circulation, and increase blood flow to skeletal muscles. Catecholamines also activate glycogenolysis and lipoysis and thus increase the supply of energy fuels to the muscle, while elevated temperature decreases the activation energy of metabolic reactions. A higher temperature also increases elasticity of muscles, tendons, and ligaments, which may reduce the risk of injury and allow for full range of motion in the joints. Two equine studies have demonstrated that a brief period (5-10 min) of warm-up exercise, completed 5 min before the start of treadmill exercise at 115-120% of V02 max, results in a significant acceleration in V02 kinetics, i.e. the rate of rise in V02 after exercise onset. This change in oxygen uptake kinetics anhances the ability of muscle to work aerobically and reduces lactate accumulation during high-intensity exercise. In one study, both a low and a high intesity warm-up resulted in a significant increase in the run time to fatigue during intense treadmill exercise when compared to exercise undertaken without prior warm-up. 02 delivery depends not only upon cardiac output (Q) but also upon arterial 02 content (Ca02), and the equine spleen is of paramount importance for setting the horse's high exercising blood hemoglobin concentration ([Hb]) and thus Ca02. Splenic contration may dump 12L or more of red cells into the circulation, thereby doubling the number of circulating red blood cells. In keeping with the importance of Q02 in determining racing performance, splenectomy reduces V02 max by over 30% in the Thoroughbred. Splenic reserve is correlated with spleen weight and total blood volume but not body mass per se. Racing horses have a significantly greater splenic mass than non-racing breeds, i.e. Arabian, stock, draft. This research is from the book, "Equine Exercise Physioogy" | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2387 Registered: 04-2006 |
Lopat , This info is very fascinating and I like to give some thoughts from a human point of view and some feedback from a discussion I had many years back with a horse trainer ( Ivers). I try to make it point by point : 1. "didnt have to raise its heart rate from 120 to 230," When we try in our case studies to do just that , a sudden HR increase from low to very high we see in the cardiac hemodynamic two reactions which we found supported with other research shown in the human forum: - Many young athletes showed in sudden surge an irregular EKG. In our tests we see that as well but what is more interesting is , that when we sudden increase we never reach an optimal cardiac output despite the fact that the HR is high. CO = HR x SV. It seems that in humans this sudden increase works mainly functionally and possibly based on hormonal; reaction mainly over HR and less over SV. Example case study . Start immediately to 300 watt HR after 10 min 178 and SV 115 120 so CO = 20.7 ? TSI % 58 If "warmed up " step wise after 10 min to 300 w HR 167 SV 130 -135 CO = 22.2 TSI % 64 If warmed up 8 min and some specific sprints in the last 11/2 min plus 30 sec rest before 300 watt push. HR 181 SV 130 -135 CO= 23.8 L but TSI 69 % So your observation would interestingly fit what w see in human cases studies. So here a question towards an info from Leonie's post to that. Warm up. We see, that the intensity of warming up is very individual. What we where looking is the influence of different intensities on TSI % "warm-up "improves tissue oxygenation, because epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline) released during warm-up increases respiratory rate, tidal volume, and heart rate, " Here a case study on Tissue oxygenation and the influence of different intensities to the tissue oxygenation.  You can see that TSI was best after a relative hard intensity and in relative" great warm up" intensities like at the start and the following few intensities TSI % got actually worse. Summary : The simple statement, which seems to be possible in horses, that "warm up " will increase tissue oxygenation would not be the truth in humans. In humans it is very crucial to know the individual intensity needed to increase tissue oxygenation and therefor optimize the situation for a race like a 800 m run. 2. Increase Oxyhemoglobin. In humans we see two version to be very effective to increase Oxyhemoglobin before a 800 m race or a fast start in a race where position may be important or my be forced on you like in rowing. See here a case study on increasing of oxyhemoglobin with different interventions and we for the moment have 2 clear ideas where it may go nicely up. Here one of the results from one idea.  The red lines as the oxyhemo trend and how we prepared first a low O2 Hb to see, whether we could produce a short term functional reaction and as you can see it worked very well. including a nice increase in actual blood volume . ( green line ) ll try with some very specific athletes n Whistler , whether this works as it is a short term functional integration and the next week they will try the idea in a world cup event and than make some conclusion from there. (Old connection form the 1988 times ) Next up the idea of lactate : | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2388 Registered: 04-2006 |
" One more thing, a horse is a glucose factory." - "to work aerobically and reduces lactate accumulation during high-intensity " In humans you don't worry about readings of lactate in the system , as a simple sample not tells you a lot , besides the fact that if there is lactate in the sample we know , that somewhere before ATP was produced O2 independent. In fact lactate in humans is a great short term energy source and depending how we handle the production it may very nicely increase short term runs like 400 and 800 m runs. Many athletes have the feeling , that the second and third interval over 400 m is much better ad faster than the first even after a "good warm up " Here a sample where we tested lactate and short changes in performance and assessed in the same time O2 Hb trend and tHb.  The third interval was the most efficient VO2 values and the highest Cardiac out put and Stroke volume and the lowest LVET. The lactate was steady increasing till to the end . You again can see a overshoot of O2 Hb after the interval. When we added after 3 - 4 min of this type of interval an additional one , where we had the highest lactate levels but as well the highest O2 Hb level we had an immediately improvement of time and or watts as a suggestion , that with a high O2 Hb situation , combined with a high lactate situation we may be able to go the longest in an O2 independent intensity. As I mentioned , one of the first "horse" people I talked about our ideas was many years back Mr. Ivers over this Form . He mentioned , that he will feed glucose to his horses and ( as he had a Lactate Pro ) could see incredible high lactate but not a drop in performance due to the high lactate , in fact as more glucose he seem to feed as higher the lactate but as well as better the horses performance ( Personal info ) Now the idea of loading glucose 2 hours before sounds interesting . Nice would be to use an idea we use on humans. Check resting lactate before feeding and about 10 min after feeding and come back with what you see. In an 800 m runner you don't worry of a full liver storage of glycogen , as he never will pick and glucose up from there. It is too short and too intense, as that he will be able to use any glucose from any place but what is stored in his working muscles. As they start out very hard the blood flow is immediately reduced due to the muscle tension and O2 Hb and blood volume immediately drop and never ever recover anymore till to the finish line . So in humans the energy supply simply comes from the intramuscular storage in a short race up to 2 min. Any start even crazy slow will drop initially TSI % as well as O2 Hb . See the simple start in a test on a human.  You can see the 5 min marker and than go to half time and see how low O2 Hb still is compared to the start , and this is in a very low wattage level. Now go to the 400 Watt marker and again you can see how O2 Hb immediately drops including tHb. Last but not least we have some interesting info's from Leonnie on Cardiac output in horses and warm up. So first as we use real numbers here the question is s on how the horse people test during exercise the cardiac output on horses, as this would be nice to compare with the human equipment and see , who we could use one or the other ideas as well. Second it would be nice when Leonnie can show us the research she mentioned in some real number examples they did in the changes in TSI during warm up as we show here from humans In human discussion we have far too often "big "names giving an absolute statement based on their reputation and name rather based on showing real numbers. We have situations where big names explained that the human VO2 max is limited to 4 l and over many years that was the "truth" We have big names explaining that 220 - age works and it is ingrained in the fitness world. We have big names stating the SV in humans only increase till to a HR of 130 and then plateaus. Lactate is the cause of fatigue, 4 mmol is the anaerobic threshold, 49 .15 degree tangent to a lactate "curve" is the individual anaerobic threshold. And we can go on and on. How is it in the horse world, who brings facts and who brings fiction ? What vis believe and what is knowing.? | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 45 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Juerg the research info quoted in my previous post are as follows: 1. Tyler CM, Hodgson DR, Rose RJ. Effect of warm-up on energy supply during high intensity exercise in horses. Equine Vet J 1996; 28:117-120 2. Geor RJ, McCutcheon LJ, Hinchcliff KW. Effects of warm-up intensity on kinetics of oxygen uptake and carbon dioxide production in horses during high-intensity exercise. Am J Vet Res 2000; 61:638-645 3. McCutcheon LJ, Geor RJ, Hinchcliff KW. Effects of prior exercise on muscle metabolism during sprint exercise in horse. J Appl Physiol 1999; 87:1914-1922 | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2390 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here is a first abstract from Leonie's list : " Equine Vet J. 1996 Mar;28(2):117-20. Effect of a warm-up on energy supply during high intensity exercise in horses. Tyler CM, Hodgson DR, Rose RJ. Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, University of Sydney, NSW, Australia. The VO2(max) in racehorses is approximately double that of elite human athletes and the rate of increase in VO2 at the onset of high intensity exercise is much greater than in man. The kinetics of gas exchange are affected by a warm-up prior to exercise in humans, there being a greater aerobic contribution to high intensity exercise after warm-up. Our hypothesis was that a warm-up would increase aerobic energy delivery in racehorses during high intensity exercise. Thirteen fit Standardbred racehorses ran to fatigue at 115% of VO2(max) on a treadmill at 10% slope. Prior to acceleration, horses were exercised either for 5 min at 50% VO2(max) followed by 5 min walk, or walked for 2 min. Samples of expired gas were collected every 10 s during the run for determination of VO2 and VCO2 and measurement of maximal accumulated oxygen deficit (MAOD). Blood lactate concentration was measured 5 min post exercise. We found that with a warm-up, horses had faster kinetics of gas exchange and a greater proportion of their total energy requirement was supplied by aerobic sources. The aerobic contribution to total energy requirement with and without warm-up was, respectively, 79.3 +/- 1.0% and 72.4 +/- 1.7% (P < 0.01). There was also a higher MAOD (P < 0.01) in horses that had not been given a warm-up (mean +/- s.e.m. 34.7 +/- 2.6 and 47.3 +/- 2.6 mLO2eq/kg bwt with and without a warm-up respectively). However, there were no significant differences in total run time or estimated total energy expenditure between the 2 protocols. We concluded that during high intensity exercise to fatigue lasting 1 to 2 min, more than 70% of energy supply is from aerobic energy sources and that this contribution is even greater when the horses have received a warm-up." You are the judge on how much info we realy have in connection with spleen dumping, with Cardiac hemidynamic and even with oxygenation of tissue saturation. What this study actually shows as a real result is : "However, there were no significant differences in total run time or estimated total energy expenditure between the 2 protocols. " As you can see there unfortunately still made a conclusion despite a clear result? ( Speculation )Perhaps they where not too happy with the outcome and their initial hypothesis ? | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 46 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Juerg, This is why I look at the date of the research. I have found through my own experiences that research too often is "in conclusive", especially when it comes to equine research. I have found that the scientists seem to have holes in much of their research.... then what are you to believe. The book I have been quoting has hundreds, maybe thousands of referrences to OLD research, a lot of which I have read when it was considered recent research. Funny thing about Standardbreds vs Thoroughbred racing is that Standardbreds only have half the amount of concussion and not nearly the same energy expenditure as Thoroughbreds because the always have two feet on the ground at once, where a Thoroughbred has only one foot on the ground during galloping or racing. How can research conclude the same results for both????? | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2391 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks so much Leonie. It feels good to read this comment from the side of a horse expert. I just had a discussion with a very very good coach from Switzerland. An incredible experienced coach and many many years of incredible success. We both have very much the same ideas and we always think , that the best combination would be to have a 150 year old experienced coach with all the small tools we have this days to go out into the field and assess. This is exactly what FaCT tries to do close the gab between the lab science and the theory and move it over to one client at a time. I strongly believe that an experienced coach is far ahead of any Lab research , when it comes to work one horse or one human at a time. Our goal is to combine this incredible wealth of experience with tools and we create a coach which is not just far a head of the Lab rats when it comes to coaching but as well far a head of the Lab rats when it comes to individual physiological data collection. Problems in human . Your Ph.D work will end with a statistical conclusion and mathematical formula and all the idea of individual ability to bring the best out of what we have in a client is gone out the window. I completely agree with Leonie and as she really inspires me to read more into horse research I feel very much back to the 1980 in human testing , as much research is based on some very strong Lab datas and we conclude from one lab set to a horse, which may move very very different. ( see Leonie's point') Same is true in humans. Just take a cyclist , who only has a down stoke and than we compare this to a cyclist who has as well a very strong up pull. and we believe that is the same muscular strain. I just work through a horse testing research , where they compare flat treadmill running and incline treadmill running . The conclusion , as it is in human is, that the demand on the systems are very different. So as we do a test in humans by changing incline we as well change muscle groups at each step we go steeper and the conclusion and outcome is very different , than when we keep flat and go faster. Nevertheless due to treadmill restriction in humans we often see center adding after a flat section .as they run out of speed . more incline and they in fact change the test. Same as , if they start slow in walking and move to running . Two different sport and two different test.  This is a human study from the late 1970 by Hollman /Hettinger. It shows nicely that walking and jogging are very different sports. Leonie makes this point as in horses they conclude from different horses with different motion pattern as the same. Any of the studies I find for the moment in horses only use gas exchange to draw conclusion and barely accept the fact , that the gas exchange result is the result of O2 use from a full team approach . The team is the horses or human body and just because we can measure how much O2 was used in the team does not tell us, who in the team used how much and was contributing how much to the end result VO2 max.. Here the human example of the team and the relative weak information VO2 max will give us at the end of a test.  The VO2 max is the result of all the above involved team member and really only tells you the end result of a performance test or race. So really VO2 max is just one more way to give and end result, but the time will tell you exactly the same. . 1 min 58 seconds for the race was the overall result from the Team ( Horse or human body . ) 65 ml/kg body weight or about 21/12 time more in a horse really only tells you in a different way how the race ended. . Actually it is even worse than time. If another horse had 1. 57 you at least know it was faster. If another horse, with a slower time had a higher VO2 max at the end you are in a big big dilemma of explaining this result , if it is only based on VO2 max. Human example. Lance Armstrong had a 85 VO2 max just before the New York marathon he run just under 3 hours. The fastest 76 year old Canadian runner had a VO2 of 55 and was 3 minutes faster in the marathon.. Hmmm , what is the better race result ? | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 48 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hey Juerg, I should mention something to you about my company having designed a human treadmill such as never having been designed before. It has a belt that does not "bunch up" under your feet, long enough travelling surface to get a full out work done with a large person and not feel like you are running off the rear of the machine. It inclines faster and steeper, has better shock absorbsion, and feels much better to run on than any human machine, plus other features. It is designed for high level sports training of atheletes. We have not manufactured the first one yet, just designed it on our computers in 3-D, for the need of the human sports industry. I have been asked, on a number of occasions, to produce a more durable machine for humans to train on. NASA has even asked us to build one for their astronauts. They chose my company because we manufacture the high speed treadmills for horses and know how to build machines for 1,200 lb animals to run on at racing speeds, safely. Just was wondering if you would be interested in such a unit or speaking to me more about it. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2405 Registered: 04-2006 |
Wowww that sounds interesting and it is always great to see new ideas coming up , challenging old establish equipments and believes. . One of the question is the need for the market . Nasa has not very fast runners or heavy runners. Most of the Astronauts are unlikely overweight but as well not super runners either. To make a top test with a world class runner you have to go up to about 25 km / h for an endurance test on a 11/2 % incline. The new skate mills motor go up to over 50 km /HOUR AND 15 - 20 % INCLINE. the SHOCK SYSTEM SEEM TO BE FAR ENOUGH TO MAINTAIN ANY HUMAN WEIGHT UP TO 500 P . there ARE NOW WIDE TREADMILLS for running with two heavy people as well. So yes your idea sounds great but it may be a challenge to move into the existing treadmill groups to compete on a very overloaded market. But hey always great to have a challenge when there is enough money around to go and try. A great treadmill would be to have instead the traditional gimmicks in front with 10 programs nobody really can use just speed and incline as physical performance but now build in a screen , where you could see cardiac hemodynamic from the physioflow and NIRS info as well as the info from the fit mate , where the VO2 would be a a part of the console as well so you could actually have all physiological ideas just in front and you would control the speed and incline based on physiological reactions. For the moment it is the treadmill , who tells you what to do and not the human body , who chooses the performance on the treadmill based on the ability. Leonie that sounds very interesting and exiting There are a few new ideas now coming on the market like Hoggans revamped non motorized treadmill with no speed nor weight limitation and a very natural way of pushing. Woodways now "Curved " treadmill without motor as well a very interesting idea with no speed limitation and no weight restriction, as they are all dependent on the ability of the runner to push as they go. There is a big trend on "green " technology in future gyms, with re-capturing the energy from running and biking and so on and use the power for many different great and trendy ideas. So lot's of new interesting ideas coming up , so will make it some will disappear. Like the idea of a running rolling treadmill on the road , where you run on a treadmill and move wheels under the treadmill and roll through town by running on the rolling object . woww possibly gimmick. Here a pick from the local mill for skating .   Brian Kosac with his Icehockey acceleration center testing players with a VO2 ( FitMate) lactate and now as well easy cardiac hemodynamic( PhysioFlow) and intracellular O2 trends ) PortaMon) | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2406 Registered: 04-2006 |
This is the carry on luggage human physiological test lab as it presents now and we introduce in March in California in our first ever WE-Search camps.   | ||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 49 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Juerg, The Nasa treadmill was so the astronauts could train and keep fit in space. They wanted the machine to be able to move as a treadmill and be placed on a gyro at the same time. Astronauts have a problem keeping bone density and muscle tone in space. Looks like Woodway got a similar job a few years later. Our human treadmill does not have any programming nor controls in the front for the person training to control the machine. It is designed for a "trainer" to control the machine for the athlete. It also has the "weight off system" so it can be used as a re-hab machine or a machine for very heavy people. Our machine is designed to have mirrors in the front so the person using the machine can watch their form as they are training. I love the idea of utilizing the built in screen where the athlete and the trainer can see the cardiac hemodynamic, V02, etc. We all ready have data acquisition built into our horse treadmills so we can read and capture and graph the speed, distance, incline and heart rate of the horse. We have our own computer programmer in my company so we can make any kind of equipment, like your physioflow or NIRS read into our machine. We also have the capability of making the machine respond to these units. These are exciting times with the technology available and people who think outside of the box creating ideas and these ideas becoming reality. When equine scientists tried a non-motorized treadmill for horses, they found that the horses just quit going forward. Good thing people can reason, or these non motorized treadmills would not work for people either. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2408 Registered: 04-2006 |
Great info, and yes the non motorized does not work on horse. We tried that in the late 1970 for a test we did on Polo Horses in St. Moritz and than went to motorized treadmills. There are some great ideas out for non weight bearing treadmills on humans . Water treadmills as they use on horses like the Aqua pacer from Ferno. As well Polar has systems , where the treadmill is controlled by the Heart rate of the patient or the bike or the elliptical equipment. You have a target HR and the equipment will increase or decrease performance depending on your HR. So would be a small step to control a treadmill over the SV or the O2 Hb situation of a human to control intensity over physiological ideas and intensities , rather than over physical ideas like watts , levels or speed. Here to enjoy . Water treadmill and Polo.   | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 145 Registered: 07-2008 |
We sure have gone far-afield in the subject of Spleen Dumping. Maybe we should carve out all the non-related to Spleen Dumping stuff and start a new thread or two. On SD to me maybe the most important post was when Renny said that blood is fully circulated in the horse's system 3 times a minute at rest. How often does it "fully" circulate per minute when a horse is racing? Three or thirty what's the difference? I have possibly missed some points in all the posts but, "Does Spleen Dumping' have any value at all in a 1 mile horse race? Should we dump discussing spleen dumping? Is it time to get into some real meat and potatoes, like Glycogen Depletion and Glycogen Re-Loading? Maybe some time in the future we will need to appoint a Dumb Question Cop? I expect to be arrested often and will always be looking for "Get Out of Jail Free cards." J | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 147 Registered: 07-2008 |
Leonie is asking Renny Shoop VMD to give more information on 3 complete revolutions or circulations of blood in one minute within a resting horse. I'm hoping to get Renny registered and posting in FaCT Forum and in the mean time will get more information about his thoughts for Leonie. | ||
| Zsuzsanna04 New member Username: Zsuzsanna04 Post Number: 1 Registered: 09-2012 |
Hi all, I'm new here, so apologies if my question has been covered before. I have some Thoroughbred colts in training and am intrigued by the fact that our local (South African) trainers are very hung up on a condition they refer to as haemo-concentrating (high red blood cell count which they believe results in thickening of the blood). I assume that this would tie in with spleen dumping and would be a normal phenomenon, but here it is seen as undesirable as a high RBC count is considered to thicken the blood, straining the circulatory system and compromising performance. For some reason, our vets and trainers feel that this problem is specific to colts and often use it as an excuse for poor performance and as a justification to geld. I know that RBC count should be somewhere around 30-40%, but some articles I've read state that this can easily rise up to 65% under exercise stress / spleen dumping. I understand that colts will have higher RBC counts than fillies, but if horses spleen dump anyway, then surely it doesn't make a huge difference whether the individual is a mare, gelding, or entire? I just wondered what your take was on this as everything I've ever read on the subject seems to indicate that high RBC count is a good thing as it increases the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood. Do you have any research to support that high RBC count thickens the blood to the point that it would actually compromise performance instead of enhancing it ? | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 226 Registered: 07-2008 |
Here's an article. If it opens correctly there are several links with more information. HIGHLIGHTS • Our Technology PAST ARTICLES • The Dangers of Overtraining • The Cause of Lameness in Horses • Why Do Horses Bleed? The Dangers of Overtraining, Part 2 Most trainers recognize that there are risks to overtraining their horses, but what should they do about it? In this article, we highlight recent research on high-intensity interval training, a regimen that is used to mitigate the risks of overtraining. A careful look at the science shows that it is not the duration of exercise but rather the intensity of exercise that has the most profound effect on the horse’s performance. Although further research is necessary, the studies conducted to date clearly show that high-intensity interval training may actually impair a horse’s performance, yielding poorer training results. Pushing horses to maximal levels of exercise during training a little less frequently may not only improve performances but also the health and lifespan of the horse. • Learn more about the effects of overtraining on blood viscosity . For more information or to order the Equine Blood Viscosity Test, visit our website at www.equinehealthlabs.com or call (800) 423-4830. Click here to unsubscribe | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 227 Registered: 07-2008 |
Try this one; http://equinehealthlabs.com/dangers-over training-2/?utm_source=overtraining2&utm _medium=email&utm_campaign=august_2012_n ewsletter | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 228 Registered: 07-2008 |
Here's another one. http://www.equinehealthlabs.com/why-do-h orses-bleed/?utm_source=overtraining2&ut m_medium=email&utm_campaign=august_2012_ newsletterr. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 229 Registered: 07-2008 |
An earlier post stated the blood fully circulates in the horse's system 3 times in a minute. A belief has been that a spleen dump imediately preceeding the start of a race is good as it dumps a large volume of oxygenated blood in the system. Of course is it not true that the spleen may dump even with out the stress of the start of a race? In any event, once the spleen dumps the horse continues at high speed does the spleen re-accumulate/store more blood, or is blood now flowing continuously through the spleen hence no more accumilation? | ||
| Zsuzsanna04 New member Username: Zsuzsanna04 Post Number: 2 Registered: 09-2012 |
Thanks so much ! I've posed the question to several different vets (by email) and will see what they reply. Verbal enquiries have yielded conflicting results. | ||
| Zsuzsanna04 New member Username: Zsuzsanna04 Post Number: 3 Registered: 09-2012 |
Another question if I may - the literature all seems to state that the spleen dumps red blood cells, rather than blood. So I'd guess that the total volume of blood would not change (or at least not much), but blood viscosity (or at least the hematocrit) would. I would assume that the spleen dumping functionality is a survival mechanism, with happy benefits for people interested in racing horses! It therefore makes sense that Nature would have designed this to work in an efficient manner and that it would increase the animal's capacity for moving fast - or at least more efficiently. What I'm trying to understand is the relationship between the increased levels of RBC's and the blood viscosity to enhance optimum performance. Obviously increased RBC's increase the blood's capacity to transport oxygen, so that is beneficial. However, the horse's oxygen intake - particularly at high speed - is restricted by its stride (flat racehorses have to breathe as they stride and inhaling and exhaling are expedited by the movement of the body mass and the g-forces on the diaphragm itself). The volume of oxygen intake is also determined by the size of the respiratory apparatus and the space available for gaseous exchange in the lungs, as well as the integrity of all these structures (any hemorrhages obviously compromise performance). If there is any truth in the hypothesis that a higher RBC count increases the viscosity of the blood and does indeed make it thicker, this will obviously strain the circulatory system. However, as I said earlier, if spleen dumping is a survival mechanism, I can't see Mother Nature devising a system that compromises an animal instead of improving it's chances of survival, so based on that (not very scientific, I know!), I have to assume that the increase in RBC must somehow make the system more efficient. So I guess my question is at what point would the benefits of raised RBC count be cancelled out by raised blood viscosity levels? | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2008 |
I don't buy anything that link that Joe posted says - that company is trying to convince horsemen that high blood thickness is always bad in an effort to get one to buy their viscosity testing services. Pure bunk. They say interval training is bad for a horse, but racing is good? Horsesh!t. The spleen contracts several small times during exercise, when the blood vessels are dilated in order to accomodate the thicker blood and the HR is elevated as well. Here in the US no one overtrains, and the same crowd that ultrasounds hearts to find large left ventricles is also now imaging to find large spleens as a pre-purchase exam. | ||
| Zsuzsanna04 New member Username: Zsuzsanna04 Post Number: 4 Registered: 09-2012 |
I would tend to agree with you Bpressey - it contradicts the US race day med theory that Lasix (or other diuretic products) prevents EIPH. Surely a diuretic would increase blood viscosity and if so, would then promote, rather than prevent bleeding? | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2008 |
I believe the studies show that Lasix may LESSEN the severity of EIPH in SOME horses, but doesn't prevent it in any. And 85% of those that get the drug, really don't need it. But, the diuretic removes water from the plasma component of blood, which does seem to decrease blood volume - if not viscosity. Lots of water, lasix addled horse lose an extra 4 lbs of fluid per hour when on the drug compared to those racing clean. | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 230 Registered: 07-2008 |
A while back our friend Juerg said in essence, for the researcher often there are no answers just more questions. I got have some too, as well as some thoughts. The blood that is stored in the spleen in horses, is it fresh blood, meaning is it highly oxygenated (good blood) or is it not (bad blood) as characterized by the author in one of the articles sent?. Is the person(s) who wrote the articles qualified to come to the conclusions he or she has? I too don't see God, or mother nature if you prefer, designing an imperfect system. But then again was the horse designed to race or for just the last 3 or 4 or more thousands of years that we know horses have been raced that the humans are messing with the perfect creature? Have there been any specific studies about spleen function with various degrees of exercise in horses? When exactly does the spleen dump in a race horse? Does it happen more than once in a mile race? If according to one vet the blood circulates 3 time a minute in a resting horse how often does it circulate in a horse going at top speed? Does the spleen function in a human as it does in a horse? I a human does it temporarily store a large volume of blood just waiting to be called upon for the extra boost? Does does the spleen refill before it dumps again when racing? If as the articles state that the blood stored in the spleen is "bad blood" and with over use it will damage the blood system elements, would not conditioning modify those elements to no longer be a problem? We have some really smart people in FaCT Forum's horse racing and training topic who could chime in with perceptions if not answers; Juerg, Andrew, Karsten, Marc-Andre, Bill and of course Leonie. I think Ken McKeever, who wrote one of the papers referrenced in that which I sent, is also on the forum. Ken's recovering from very serious surgery and not sure if he's on or not but will try to find out and at least try to get a PDF of his paper. In all candor I do not have much confidence that a lot of conversation regarding spleen dumping is worth the effort but since I could be wrong...here I am again. A while back there was great activity in FaCT's Horse Racing and Training. For many, many reasons I had to pull out. I would like to jump back in again if only to better understand the values of studying lactate information we can gather on our horses...we'll see. | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2008 |
http://thoroedge.wordpress.com/2012/08/0 3/endorsement-in-the-whitney-the-true-co st-of-giving-up-lasix/ | ||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 78 Registered: 10-2008 |
Check this race replay of a horse with no Lasix, who had his spleen dumped per rigorous warm up at my direction: he jumps at the break, gives the field a 5 lengths advantage going 6F, then sprints past them all to win by 3 in hand: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/r ace/USA/MNR/2012/9/2/4/race-4 | ||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 231 Registered: 07-2008 |
With his post #75, I think Bill hit the nail on the head with the articles I sent...Pure Bunk! Also appreciated his knowledge of spleen contractions. I just sent a note to Ken McKeever asking him to chime in or at least send me a PDF of 2. McKeever, K.H., et al., Role of decreased plasma volume in hematocrit alterations during incremental treadmill exercise in horses. Am J Physiol, 1993. 265(2 Pt 2): p. R404-8. |