| Author | Message | ||
     Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2666 Registered: 04-2006 |
This is a part from a very nice article on rest and regeneration. Here a short part where we at least could discuss a bit: "Does a lion limber up before it goes out and takes down a gazelle? NO - I know post-ride stretching is important and that .... " Hmmm how many lions stretch after they took the gazelle down ? Pre race stretching seems slowly be accepted as not beneficial to say the least in sport. When we did out first workshops over 20 years back and showed the negative pre stretch effect people thought we are crazy. So 50 % is for now accepted to a certain extend. Now how about the post stretch. Well the picture can be very different here. It as so often depends on the type of workout you did. If the Lion was not very successful and goes home without a gazelle he may behave different than when he was successful and is eating lots before laying down ( and does not stretch )Post workout stretch depends on the workout and what was the goal respectively the limiter and or compensator of the workout. Coordination workouts can increase EMG activity very intense and in contrary respiratory workout often can reduce EMG activity . Muscular workouts with involvement of eccentric can cause some interruption of the parallel elastic and serial elastic elements of a muscle and in some cases even a problem on the contractile elements of the muscles. Here stretching may be very much a big question. Here a picture of a eccentric muscle damage after a workout , where it seems the muscle where the limiter.  The next step for us is to review some of these ideas and see how the muscle reacts when stretching in the different stages ( resting EMG activity and than during a workout with elevated EMG activity and than post workout as the EMG activity may start to drop and so on. What is the plan . Well now we not only can watch live changes in the electric behaviour of the muscles but as well by using a NIRS we can actually see the change in blood flow and metabolic reactions due to the changes of muscle tension and specific stretching positions. This may alter the way we will stretch in using different techniques as well as the timing on the duration of the stretch. I use the NIRS now daily on patients like whip lash injuries and situation , where we believe a muscle is tight and by combining the EMG and the NIRS it forced me to change many current ideas of physio therapy and really go with what I see, rather than what I learned. Many situation where we classically stretch may actually need everything but stretching and it will be fun over the next plus year to see how I can adjust old school ideas with reality work and what the results will be. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2724 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here from another "PRO" It shows you how little this "PRO"'s really have in the way of proper feedback on their Biomarkers. Cycling is simply not all about legs. The legs are luckily the once , who get shut down mostly first ( exceptions) depending on the weak link. Remember : Cardio weak link = less recruitment result weak legs feeling , but not because they are weak. Respiratory system = weak link = metaboreflex = weak legs feeling but .... So the comment has three options, but the PRO nor the coach may actually know what was the reason of the weak legs : Cardio Respiratory local muscle strength or a combination. Well how can you by using a MAP test in this association as the key for assessing and intensity control ?. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2733 Registered: 04-2006 |
First Pro statement: : "This was a course where you had to have good legs, and I could tell right from the start that I certainly didn't feel the same as I felt at the Chrono Champenois, second Pro statement: " After coming through the park the first time I thought, geez, this is not good. I was looking down at my power output and I was just not able to put out anything. It just wasn't there." I like the part : I was looking down to my power output: Well there is the future difference between physioiological assessment from a Pro versus a power assessment from a PRO. I am more and more surpised, how Pro Athletes not have decent idea nor information , how their most important part of the sport , their own body actually function. Looking down to see , that the power is not what it should be on a world champion ship TT opens the question , why an athelet with this many years of training different coaches , exercise physiologist still has to look down on a power meter to actually see, that the performnace is not here. I wonder, whether he had ideas, where his HR was on that mooment, the respiratory frequency , the feeling of the lactate level he may have, the tidal volume due to the depth of breathing and as well the TSI % at that moment. We had already in preparation of athletes 1984 to the LA olympics situations, where the lactate values would be and at that time the athl;ets where able to tell it on 0.2 - 0.3 mmol / L accurate. We did 10 years back in preparaation for a future bike carrier in Sidney ( Vancouver Island trainings arround the airport , where three young athletes where able to tell the lactate and HR on a 2--3 % accuracy as a bio marker feeling. Well watt is always watt and it does not depend where HR and other physiological values are , if we believe at the wattage users. Well this is a unfortunate example , that wattage really don't tell you anything what went wrong. What has to be done is : assessing athletes physiological. Having before reaces like that infos on individual biomarkers and than after a race indepednent whether it goes good or bad re-assess the bio markers and see whether there are certain changes physiological or whether there were some psychological problems with it. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2755 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here from another Pro but not up to date , despite the fact they claim that they know what they do. " posted by Recently I ordered the PTC package from ACE and while reading through the first chapter I became confused with measruing Cardiac Output and Stroke Volume. I understand that CO=SV(HR). I can measure my Heart Rate (HR) effectively (# of beats per 15sec multiplied by 4) but the only thing even remotely mentioned about measuring Stroke Volume (SV) in the chapter, or the whole book for that matter, is a little sentence, 'Stroke volume is measured in milliliters (mL) per beat (1 ounce = 29.6 mL).' -and I quote. So my question is this: Should I use the above (29.6mL) in my equation? For example: (Not factoring in Ejection Fraction) If my resting heart rate is 76 BPM, should I just go: CO=29.6mL(76)? Which would mean. . . my CO= 2249.6 mL/min. Is assuming that everytime my heart beats it pumps approximately 1oz or 29.6mL of blood a good practice or is there a more accurate way for me to measure my (and potentially my future clients') Stroke Volume? Some sort of 'field test' perhaps? P.S.: The book refers to an example: "For example, if the heart beats 60 times per minute (HR=60), and 70 milliliters of blood are pumped each beat (SV=70 mL), the cardiac output would be 60bpm (70 mL/beat) = 4200 mL/min. This equals about one gallon of blood per minute, a fairly typical cardiac output at rest". -and I quote. Under this equation, if we went by 1heartbeat=29.6mL, then the equation should be: 60bpm (29.6mL/beat) = 1776 mL/min. IN SHORT: HOW DO I MEASURE STROKE VOLUME? Im confused!! I hate to be technical but its driving me nuts trying to figure it out! Hope someone can help! Thanks! Senior Member posted by xxx the short answer is don't worry about it. What is more important is to understand what stroke volume is and what cardiac output is, so that you can explain to clients how a regular exercise routine can improve cardiac output and what the benefits of that are. In the real world as a personal trainer, you cannot measure stroke volume and you never would with a client. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2756 Registered: 04-2006 |
Now here an interesting "manipulation to a formula , which simply does not work: " posted By what you have to do is take your blood pressure, then you subtract the diastolic and the systolic. ex. if your B/P is 120/50 this would give you 70. lets say your heart rate is 75 beats per min. CO=HR X SV =75beats X 70ML ----- ---- min beats =5250ML (5.25L) ------- ------ min min so this would mean that the CO is 5L per minute. " DBP 50 ???? hmmm Now here a good return on this input : " posted 03-21-06 03:07 PM what you have to do is take your blood pressure, then you subtract the diastolic and the systolic. ex. if your B/P is 120/50 this would give you 70. lets say your heart rate is 75 beats per min. CO=HR X SV =75beats X 70ML ----- ---- min beats =5250ML (5.25L) ------- ------ min min so this would mean that the CO is 5L per minute. Here a nice respond back " Technically, that is not correct. Stroke volume is not determined by subtracting diastolic BP from systolic BP. Blood pressure is exactly that, a measurement of the pressure in the circulatory system, measured in ml Hg. Stroke volume is the volume of blood pumped with each beat of the heart, measured in ml. You are mixing apples and oranges. There is a similar, but different, formula for stroke volume that you are confusing this with. The actual formula is SV = ESV - EDV. ESV is Ending Systolic Volume, or the amount of blood in the left ventricle at the end of systole, measured in ml. EDV is Ending Diastolic Volume, or the amount of blood, measured in ml, left in the left ventricle at the end of diastole. Of course, as a trainer, you have no way to measure this unless you happen to have a portable doppler echocardiagram device at your disposal. Again, you cannot use the difference in systolic and diastolic pressures to give you this number, because blood pressure and blood volume are two completely differnt things. The equation in the previous post is not correct." Good respond but check carefully his "Formula " How much blood is left , when you take the ESV and the EDV ESV - EDV . ESV is ???? How big is EDV ??? Now what is EF % Ejection fraction. How much blood is left ??? This is the respond from the person , who may benefit from reading sme of our posts and check out the latest in equiment developpment. Nevertheless they are the "leading" group. | ||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 416 Registered: 04-2006 |
How do these guys get away with charging people money for their services? They simply do not understand anything about cardiac physiology, which even our 15 year-old athletes understand at a higher level, and area already looking forward to being able to test the ideas themselves, through an on-line curriculum provided for high school students in B.C. And once we have a Physioflow to use with our team, EVERY athlete we work with will know their Stroke Volume under different loads, and be able to understand how it is affected by different conidtions, such as dehydration, warm-up, respiratory manipulation etc. I suppose, then we will be recognized as the "leading" group. Or just continue to be a small town team with some very smart athletes... | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2759 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here a nice info from another Pro : " Understanding the basics of the cardiovascular system (hemodynamics in the case of this thread) is important to having a more thorough knowledge of how the body acutely and chronically responds to exercise/physical activity as well as the direct and indirect implications that has on health, fitness, and sport performance. However, few people outside of a clinical or research setting will: 1) need to know accurate values for variables like cardiac output and stroke volume and 2) have the equipment/resources to be able to determine such values. As a point of clarification, the only way to "measure" stroke volume, cardiac output, ejection fraction, and oxygen consumption is to actually go in there (i.e. the heart or its vessels) with catheters and directly collect the data (volumes, concentrations, etc.). Even cardiologists who need to know things like stroke volume and ejection fraction usually do it noninvasively with an echocardiogram and "eyeball" these variables based on changes in various cardiac dimensions and blood flow velocities. Many of them are, however, very good at this and their "eyeball" estimations might as well be measurements. I got to see this on a daily basis when I worked in a research division of a cardiology clinic as I was going through my doctorate program. Oxygen consumption (i.e. VO2) is also estimated (not "measured") using a metabolic collection and analyzer system that is based on something called indirect calorimetry. Yes, the inspired and expired gases are collected and analyzed for gas concentrations and flow volumes but the end piece of data (i.e. VO2) is still just an estimate based on physiology and hemodynamics that are beyond the scope of this discussion. That is not to say those estimations can't be very accurate, it simply means the term "measure" is not correct. It might sound like semantics, but it is important to know the difference. Long story made slightly longer: know the formulae, understand the relationships of the various components of each formula to one another, be able to talk about what it all means to your particular scenario (e.g. exercising client, clinical patient, elite athlete, etc.) and don't worry about having to know (or determine) indices like stroke volume and cardiac output. Mr. XYZ.. Assistant Professor of Exercise Physiology Director, Exercise Physiology Laboratories College of xxxx | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2762 Registered: 04-2006 |
" How do these guys get away with charging people money for their services?" Well it is only a question of getting older and time and pushing to reach cerain positions. Than you actually teach future coaches as they have to take this courses to be "certified" and once you are teaching there you get away with nearly anything you tell. You can change Cardiac hemodynamic , you can make statements , who changes information for the next generation of coaches and you can even change "physiology" as coaches learn to" breath out lactate acid "to be able to avoid fatigue. Smile . it is all about our way we learn to be educated. : Remember: " To be educated you need the ability to repeat what the teachers tells you to repeat. To challange this you need a brain." add on: if you unfortunately may have a brain and you may not even challange but ask your educator, you may be not certified. So the smartes step is to simply repeat what you have to repeat or what they tell you. Sounds to me like bad politic ( smile ) Ask our local provincial MLA . | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2768 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here a great review of a "failed" Tour of a PRO rider. It is one of the many PRO's running on extreme wattage training programs. You can read in between the lines, that they have very little , if any assessment tools, to understand the physiological reactions a Tour and or workouts have on the performace. They simply see the reesults after the fact , when the power ( wattage ) numbers simply not add up anymore. This "wake -up " results started in the first day Prologue already and kept going on and on during the tour. Even after the tour there was no tool to asses the endresult of this effort. Nevertheless it is a multimillion dollar Pro team budget. When we look inside this sport and see , how many hundred thousand dollars is used for pharmacological internal tests and tryouts than you wonder , when and how this sport can move forward and try to improve real physioloical assessment options. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2773 Registered: 04-2006 |
Well perhaps there may be different options in sport, which may make it very legal and interesting as there is mind and body involved.: Lot's of money spent here for very little understanding of teh physiological impact ion the human body . : " Before the verdict was announced, Matschiner said he was happy to have the trial over, and that he would never be involved in the sports business again. “I will never come back, because it is so disgusting. Rather, I am happy that it has happened and that I can finish it off. This chapter is closed for me,” he said, according to ORF.at." | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2776 Registered: 04-2006 |
"It's not a lot of blood, but it gives you a lot of boost," Matschiner said. "Usually the effect comes a day later, supplying the muscle cells with oxygen." Responder and no responder. Here you see the lack of physiological thinking. With EPO and or blood transfusion we have the same as with altitude training. Responder and no responder. The reason is NOT ( alone the o2 supply to the muscle, but rather the O2 supply to any system. If the Cardiac system is the limiter and or the respiratory system. Blood doping and EPO work really well, as we can move the reaction of the ECGM,. The regular reader on our Forum has an easy answer why this is the case. If the muscles are the limitation on simply not having enough mitochondria density and the O2 supply is always great any way , than there is very little change. Now that is one of the reasons , why in top athletes the EPO and the blood doping work so well. This top athletes had real serious and honest work done over many years by developping great muscular ability but in many case the structural limitation on respiration and cardiac abilities where never addressed, as we still do not assess this physiological factors. As we see more and more by using Physio Flow and VO2 different, many of the top athletes have a real limitation in respiration and cardiac function in high intensity . So ECGM will be limiting further improvement and as the majority of coaches and exercise physiologists do not accept the fact , that we can improve cardiac and respiratory function they unfortunately move towards pharmacological help as it works great by adding additional O2 to it so ECGM will kick in later. Therefor clear performance improvement. We can do this legally by addressing the weakness in the team. | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2777 Registered: 04-2006 |
It is not just using O2 transporters like EPO and Hb but as well by improving functions of cardiac and respiratory systems. ( Which again seems to Proof our idea of weak link ) Some may remember the respiratory problems Contador was having a year ago at the tour. Well perhaps a limiter. What can you do : 1. Use FaCT ideas and Spiro Tiger or 2. Use pharmacological ideas like ???? Here what you can take from a Pro : " Clenbuterol in general is something that is quite common in the world of cycling. It's usually orally used on a pretty frequent basis. It's just a guess on my side, but hypothetically, if an athlete takes a very small dose it would help him breathe. The half life is so short that my only guess for a positive case for such a small amount is that he took a little too much." | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2778 Registered: 04-2006 |
It is ironic and possibly for some hard to swallow. But you see more and more why we believe in FaCT and teh weakest link in combination with a fundamental review of exercise assessment's . " The two Poles, who placed first and second at this year's championships in Tabor, were later found positive for EPO and their results were nullified. Jouffroy placed third in the race and was promoted to world champion, while Tom Meeusen (Belgium) and Marek Konwa (Poland) moved into second and third, respectively." | ||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3163 Registered: 04-2006 |
The PRO racing season started . Are we better on with information. Here an example , where the poor guy, who uses with his team doctor, Wattage , struggles to understand or not understand his problems of performance. Wattage is great as it shows, that what ever they do simply does not work. BUT it does not tell them why it does not work. Here to think through the idea of bio markers to add perhaps to wattage testing. The two-time xxxxx road champion had been struggling for form in recent times. XY had being trying a different, more relaxed approach to gaining form but he said it hasn't been working. "I have not been producing the best data," he said. "And it has felt like the more I trained or the more focused I tried to be, the worse I got, leaving me clueless and frustrated as to what to do next." | ||
| Juerg Moderator Username: Juerg Post Number: 3580 Registered: 03-2006 |
An there is no change. What changed is the explanations why "Pro's" ride like pro's. They for sure don not train like Pro's Here teh latest interview with a top pro rider. Well with the difficulty to get recovery drugs in like anabolic helpers he is right he has to find out more . " I'm doing these 200km races which I feel I've adapted to in the race but it's actually the recovery time in between them which I'm trying to get right," he told Cyclingnews. "It's learning to push through fatigue or not." | ||
| Juerg Moderator Username: Juerg Post Number: 3581 Registered: 03-2006 |
An there is no change. What changed is the explanations why "Pro's" ride like pro's. They for sure don not train like Pro's Here the latest interview with a top pro rider. Well with the difficulty to get recovery drugs in like anabolic helpers he is right he has to find out more . " I'm doing these 200km races which I feel I've adapted to in the race but it's actually the recovery time in between them which I'm trying to get right," he told Cyclingnews. "It's learning to push through fatigue or not." |