Post Number: 79
|Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 12:00 am: |
I got asked a question today from Adam a club mate it goes like this :-
"After 5 consecutive days of training/racing from last wednesday to sunday (with limited sleep also). Which culiminated in my longest ever race, almost 3 hours, on Sunday. I was obviously fairly tired. With much Uni work to do I didn't have time to train/do recovery rides yesterday or monday.Today I rode for 90 minutes, and for more or less the first 60mins, my legs felt rather heavy. But as the last 30mins of the ride drew to a close, I felt good again. Strong and fast. Can you please offer up an explanation as to what was going on in my body through the past 72hours or so...??"
I then asked Adam what were his workouts and he replied :-
"Last Weds, 90 mins fast tempo stuff, about 240w av, around 160bpm, 240w is approximately my lactate turnpoint.
Thurs, 200mins, some threshold work, about 50mins, rest around 210w av.
Fri, 90mins at 210w
Sat, CR 180mins @ 185w av, 155bpm av
Sun, 170mins @ 260w, 169bpm av
So like I say, a fairly tough 5 days. I think my dead leg feeling was to do with a lack of warm down on sunday after the race. And poor immediate post race recovery, i.e standing around at a BBQ as previously mentioned with a couple of beers, and greasy BBQ food. So I would imagine it was a delayed action of recovery and fuel replenishment that lead to my dead legs. But like I say, after 60mins they soon got going again, thoughts?"
I know Adam has had a standard lactate threshold test down at a University 2 months ago. What does 240W lactate turnpoint mean? After 2 days of rest he stilll felt rough but 60mins into his 90min ride his legs felt much better, can you explain what's happening?
Be interesting to see his LBP. He's just been promoted from 3rd to 2nd CAT and he's a sprinter. He use to use HR but has now got a Powertap. He's told me he's seen a max HR of 207 on the road.
Post Number: 80
|Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 12:11 am: |
I remember whilst doing a search which I can't find now, you posted on the forum why you might not initially feely great at the beginning of workout.
Post Number: 391
|Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 08:04 am: |
smile , there are more question in this question than answers.
1. This is at least for me an example of workouts,who can tell us how much wattage the bike had to endure.
This is an excellent example for the situation : a) if teh athletes progresses you are happy but yopu are not really sure why .
If he does not progress you are not happy and as well you don't no why ?
1. What is lactate turn point.
2. What is threshold are the based on what and possibly on wattage.
What is his "baseline" performance line and how did it move over this 5 days.
How is his cardio system ( exc. HRV in the morning or resting versus orthoheart rate. How did , due to the accumulation of "fatigue " ( low energie storage, low sleep - co-ordination from CNS, fluid intake ( bad nutrition and so on change basic informations of his bio-markers. )
This is at least for me an excellent info on how a wattage only based plan just does not help me to know which "model" car he took out of his garage.
You own a - porsche
- a Volkswagen beetle
- a new canadian electric model Zen
Now you go out iwth a fixed speed of 50 km/h
It is always as wattage is the same physical value but it will be on different % of teh maximal ability.
A body , who is stressed over 5 days will be every morning a different model and even 50 km/h is still the same speed it is not the same % of the maximal possible performance.
In the aboe case if you use the idea of FaCT you will have every morning or after 5 days some information , on which model you will use or how the % will have changed due to the previous workout.
Based on this info you have a better inside view on which system ( model 0 may need a rest and from the information you gathered over time you know how long the average recovery time will be for each system , if you lost so much performance.
Example: Take your fittest infos you gathered and than compare with the workouts and the cardio intensities you did and you can see on your sheet already a certain trend , when the fittest numbers climb or drop and what you have to do to get them faster back on your base line.
The same assessment can be done for the respiratory system, the metabolic system teh co-ordination system, the muscle recruitment system and so on.
This assessment can be very exact or for us much more as an over view with simple tools and simple assements on teh bike if outside.
So in the above situation we just now as you mentioned, the guy did an excellent 5 days of work and it proofed itself true as he got worse. But we only know the whole body got worse (perhaps ( but we do not know in which zone he actually worked out , we only know how much wattage got put on his bike.
Which is nice too , as in case he likes to sell his bike he can tel the potential buyer , how many km and how many wattage he has on his bike..
It will be harder to tell that about his body. ( smile ) Juerg
Post Number: 392
|Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 08:38 am: |
Rob I am back with another question to your "case" . On the day he biked 90 min ( 60 min uncomfortable and than getting better)
What was his "wattage" and did he used wattage from the recovery zone or did he used just body feeling. What was his HR and when he felt fast and strong what was teh definition of fast and strong ?
was it based on feeling fast and strong or was it based on heart rate compared with teh wattage he pushed. was it based on respiration feeling versus what.
This is another interesting point of using feeling versus ???. Last but not least. If your friend on day 6 instead of doing a rest day would have done a workout by 240 wattage , do we think it was the same "intensity zone' as 240 wattage was at the beginning of this 5 day period.
240 versus 240 ? always the same stimmlus for your body at day one as well as at day six if he would have gone out ?????
Or in other words.
After a 1 hour world record on the track with an average wattage of let's say 450 wattage. Do you think after they missed the world record, they just go back 60 min later and try 450 , which is the same "intensity" but just put some more tire pressure in and a more areo dynamic helmet to pick up the 2 seconds they missed , as they could calculate , that with that more tire pressure and the little less drag it willjust be 3 seconds faster , and as we learned from the wattage group , the 450 wattage is always the same zone , as we really don't have to listen to heart rate , heat , hydration and so on but it is just interesting smile ) Check your friend words by our 2 x 20 min workout - smile .
Post Number: 81
|Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 02:02 pm: |
What do you mean by 2 x 20min workout Juerg?
Post Number: 394
|Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 03:28 pm: |
Rob remember the thread you sent with your friends comment n not watching heart rate but just going with the wattage . In there there was a 2 x 20 min workout which was the start of the discussion. Go back in the threads and check for it. It is a good training for possible memory loss as well and we will try to find an easy test system for that particular problem ( smile ) it comes with age . Hmm what was again the name of that problem . he he see it's starts here as well. Juerg
Post Number: 84
|Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 06:06 pm: |
Ah ok, I know what you mean now Juerg...
I use to do these workouts but 3 x 25mins with 5mins rest inbetween. Here are the stats from the very last 3 x 25min indoor workout in Jan 08 paced by using watts.
1st 25min interval - 268W/157bpm
2nd 25min interval - 267W/158bpm
3rd 25min interval - 267/160bpm
To me I don't think there's much drift with HR pretty much a stable relationship between Watts & HR. My Lactate balance point tested in Mallorca after spending 3 months riding @ 132bpm was 165bpm.
When the Watts guy do these intervals it's based on your 1hr power figure x 0.94-1.05.
Back to the thread my friend was responding to Michelle who wrote this :-
"Just did my first 2 x 20 on a turbo (borrowed off Marek) yesterday. Tried one last week on the road and v inconsistent trying to get the HR up to required level and keep it there, so turbo our from under the kitchen table and set up.
God it was hard! Much much much much much much harder than doing it on the road.
And I am only doing HR ranges 153- 166 and 156 - 168!!!!!
That was hard enough God help me. I was a puddle, the bike was a puddle, the floor under the bike was a puddle. I looked sunburned for half an hour I was so pink. Or maybe I was green :mrgreen:
Lotta work to do then.........sigh."
Post Number: 396
|Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 10:22 pm: |
Hallo Rob ; 165 LBP and your 25 min where LBP - 5 so you know you where in the oxygen dependent glucolysis mainly. Meaning with an average body weight and an average nutritional situation you should be able to maintain wattage and HR linear with a small drift at the end, caused by a lower level of muscle glycogen.
Assuming a kcal/h use of 700 - 900 kcal and a muscle glycogen storage of not optimal but for sure 150 - 250 gr. which would get you just over 1 hour before you have to try to activate some liver glycogen to use as well in the working muscle. This small shift can nicely be traced by blood sugar curves and lactate trends as well in very good overall trained athletes they may be a lactate shuttle , helping to move muscle glycogen from for example arm muscles towards your legs.
So in your case you where physiologically always in the same zone ( based on FaCT ideas, which means same motor , so same wattage.
Now here is where wattage can come in handy.
By doing a 4 th set or 5th set the same way with 25 min. you would start running low on fuel and your HR would start to drift higher , resp. if you train with FaCT ideas you would have to drop wattage.
This is the point of discussion now. Do you like to train an overload of glycogen depletion , than you drop the wattage and keep going as an overload of this spec. idea.
If you like to try to train surviving you keep wattage going to try to see where your system falls apart.
The question is , that physiologically you change not in the FaCT idea , in the wattage idea you maintain physical performance , but you dig in your physiology into another zone ( surviving trend ) The question is what do you liek to achieve and for what do you need a possible adaptation in the overload area. Now if you see the girl , she already has after 2 x 20 a drift. She is possibly less heavy than you so less demand on kcal but as well less storage. Nevertheless she starts some trends of drifting with HR and it would be interesting to see where her LBP is. Possibly around 157 - 162 so she just works perhaps on the LBP where an increase in body temperature due to the inside workout can move her already into another zone, as the temp. regulation inside is much harder than on a road. Juerg
Post Number: 85
|Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 01:22 am: |
Here's a screen shot of the 3 x 25mins intervals which were done @5am without any breakfast :-
Post Number: 86
|Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 01:32 am: |
I'm not so sure how well I could do this interval if I started tomorrow and covered up the Watts display and used HR as the pacing factor.
Using the above image in the first interval on this session I did 267W/157BPM and paced with Watts.
@5 mins avg HR 147bpm avg Watts 261W.
@10 mins avg HR 152bpm, avg Watts 264W.
@15min avg HR 155bpm, avg Watts 266W.
Post Number: 87
|Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 01:38 am: |
The 2nd interval looks like this 267W/158bpm :-
@5 mins avg HR 151bpm avg Watts 263W.
@10 mins avg HR 154bpm, avg Watts 265W.
@15min avg HR 156bpm, avg Watts 266W.
And the 3rd interval 267W/160bpm :-
@5 mins avg HR 152bpm avg Watts 263W.
@10 mins avg HR 155bpm, avg Watts 263W.
@15min avg HR 158bpm, avg Watts 265W.
These intervals were done inside and I have 2 16inch fans blowing on me to keep me cool. In Mallorca when I did the LBP test we had no fans and boy did I sweat.
Post Number: 88
|Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 01:47 am: |
For got to say my Cadence went down on each interval. Reason why I dropped it seemed easier for me to hold the power on each interval.
1st interval - 96rpm
2nd interval - 94rpm
3rd interval - 91rpm
Would have been interesting to have known what my
LBP might have been back in December to see what type of interval I was doing i.e LBP +
Post Number: 1
|Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 07:14 am: |
Well first hello to everybody since this is my first post here. Nice intervals, could you tell me the purpose of them. I supose the main purpose was the interconversion of the FTF 2b into FTF 2a?Thank you, I will also start to post my trainings here. Today for example: 120 km, 145 avg/170max, 29km/h-a nice basic endurance ride.
Post Number: 399
|Posted on Monday, May 05, 2008 - 07:59 pm: |
Hallo Rob . Thanks for your info , and it is very nice to see , how Watt and HR have a very clear connection , as long the intensity in below LBP. As well you are right , that in a workout , where you do intervals as in your example indoor wattage is an incredible nice objective way to see change in performance.
Exactly this is and example where wattage can nicely be integrated in workouts and put into connection with physiological bio-markers, like heart rate, respiratory rate, body temperature, and metabolic infos (like lactate and others).
Your 3 x 25 min on a wattage trainer or with any type of wattage device is a great way , to see under what conditions and intensities your body response first. ( meaning , which bio-marker will give you a first trend information on upcoming changes due to the fixed wattage.
This is where we use the bio- harness as a nice tool to give this information.
If you have the time and the chance, repeat this 3 x 25 min exactly the same way , but no fan to cool yourself down and post the results.
Interesting would be to see with the bioharness, how your repiratory rate and your body temperature and your heart rate will change. Which bio marker show the first trend to a change and which one the last.
Example take lactate after 12.5 and 25 min in the series , as well as the respiratory rate and the HR is anyway there.
This way you realy will see, that if the "outside" situations, which is a big part in cycling change the physiological system may need to counter some of this stimuly ( like heat , change in the incline or downhill ( rpm) on the road , head wind tail wind and so on.
So the change due to the above can change the way the body will create ATP and use ATP. Or more easy to explain. If you drop RPM you may actualy change the co-ordination (intra muscular as well as intermuscular ) and possibly the "balance" requirement for body stabilization.
So this is a very nice example if we can
compare the 2 versions and it may be anice example , where we can see , that wattage is great for certain aspects .
Now to make it an example.
We use with our athletes wattage on the trainer as you do or outside , as it reflects more accurate the physical overall performance.
. Once we see that there is a clear trend of any of the biomarkers.
Practical example with your 3 x 25 min workout.
In your case there was a minimal "shift of HR " after the 3rd interval, which means , there is no clear trend in HR as a sign of a shift in the balance of the cardio system.
We would consider this as a not "finished " workoput, as for us the definition of a workout is , that you will be worse .
In your case HR and wattage are stable.
So we would consider this as a cardio
maintenance workout. If the goal would be to push the cardio system , you would have to add another set and see , whether the heart rate climbs now clear or not and than stop if it climbs.
Problem you don't know why the heart rate climbs if you only take heart rate / wattage.
It could be:
a) because you really start to "fatigue " cardio wise.
b) it could be because you "fatigue +" CNS ( co-ordination wise
c) it could be the body temp went up and you "fatigue" temp. wise
d) it could be your respiratory system may fatigue.
So any of the above could contribute to a rise in heart rate, but we do not know yet which one . So in case of wattage or heart rate , if taken completely alone, we have only the info , that something is not oin balance anymore.
What to do?
Here we take the ideas of FaCT IRIS.
Which is , taking different bi markers to see, what system starts to show the first trend of out of balance and will therefor
contribute to a possible climb of the heart rate at a somewhat later stage.
You have a slightly cold and after the first intervall you will see in the second a higher respiratory rate after 3 - 4 min from 25 in the first set to 30 now in the second set. You may still have same wattage and heart rate , but you see a trend in change of respiratory rate.
The simpler version now will suggest , that you need more O2 for the respiratory work , and assuming you maintain the same TV ( tidal volume) this additional O2 usage by the respiratory system , may start to change the way the working leg muscles can supply ATP. % of FFA usage to glycogen. This will change the whole dynamic and at the end of set 2 your heart rate may be 5 - 10 beats higher , that without cold. Now again the question :
Is the fixed wattage still the same physiological workout, or is the increased heart rate and the change of the respiratory rate perhaps a sign , that the respiratory system may be the limitation today and therefor you may have to make a decision to stop the workout or just simply negelct the bio markers .
My suggestion would be to stop , as the bio-marker tells you , that the performance loss is based not on a workout loss as a the goal of the training ( getting ) worse, but rather a sign of your body , that something is already worse before the workout and to "stress" a cold to get cold resistance is unlikely the goal of this workout.
Okay let's take another example.
Same sets . RPM 95 , but in the second set you see the RPM drop and becasue you like to hold the wattage and the HR is still stable you just simply drop the RPM further.
Now if you try to maintain the RPM your HR will likely go up due to the higher O2 demand of the brain ( co-ordination ) as well as the loss of efficient co-ordination ) in your leg muscles.
This will lead to higher heart rate by the same wattage.
Now the question here is.
what to do ?
is the limiting factor caused by something you like to improve or not ?
Well give this idea a thought and come back and I will be back as well. Juerg