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     Juerg New member Username: Juerg Post Number: 203 Registered: 04-2006 |
As you can imagine: Herb and I collected a pile of datas and case studies over the last 15 years. Some where stupid in the asked questions and a lot were just collecting datas, who made at the time little sense. As so often over time you find this or that piece suddently as a perfect fit in the endless puzzle of ongoing questions. We have very limited resources and all of our case studies are based on equipment we can get a hand on , it is affordable, you can transport it and easy to use. I recall our ammonia tests 8 years back with our first amonia checker. I did 25 years back the first amonia checking in combination with Urea. Back here we started to check the connection with glucose, ammonia and keton in combination with the different duration on an athlets possible food intake. ( was nice to see a studie at the spin summit from the university of calgary exactly on this topic , with actually equipment bought from us.) I may come back during the year on this specific question and findings we did. I would like to start the discussion in 2008 on a set of case studies we did over the last 3 years in the way of discussing possible influences of endurance training with the respiratory system The main problem to overcome is the current traditional believe , that breathing resp. the respiratory system is never pressed to the limit and therefor it is not needed to focus on it or it never will be of limitation in athletic performance in healthy individual Short tests like Vital capacity , total air volume in 1 min and so on convince people to believe that. Total air volume of 150 - 170 liter / min can easy be done and respiration rates of up to 90 / min can be tested. so in a TT or 10 meter run we see respiration rates of 40 - 50 in world class runners and Total air volumina of up to 140 liter. So no big deal , they could move much more and even much faster. True. Hmm do we argue the same. Example. How fast can you run over 400 meter 60 sec / 80 sec/ hmm how fast do you run 100 m 15 sec 20 sec. How fast can you run 1 km 3 min 3.30 . 4 min . Well there are lot's of people who can run 4 min for 1 km which allows them to run 2h 48 min for a marathon True. woww and all the 3min triathlon guys over 1 km can actually run 2h 06 for the marathon. How much weight can you lift in a bench press 200 p . so no big deal to make 5 min long push ups or chin ups you have the strenght to do it ? You can turn 150 RPM on your bike so no problem to keep 120 for 6 hours. You can push 500 wattage for 3 min so where is the problem to follow a tour peleton , who goes only 280 - 320 wattage in an avarage stage. ? I hope you see where we go ?. Is the fact , that we see in short term maximal assessment values we never see in a race, really a sign , that the respiratory system is never pushed to the limit. What is with that guy , who has a 85 VO2 max and runs the New York marathon the first year in just 3 h . and the winner with the same VO2 is nearly 1 hour faster. How about the fact, that a cyclist may be using only 50 % of his VO2 max in an all out running test. Does that means , that what ever hangs with a VO2 together is not pushed to the limit. ? I will show some very interesting very basic case studies , who may give some ideas and possible leed to some very nice discussions , and we hope that down the road , as we see now with the lactate trend idea ( started 15 years ) back ) the research comunity will come up with some ideas. Well it took the british admirality only 150 years to make Vit C mandatory after Vasco da Gama showed it in his case studies on his way to india. . Hmm history is sometimes interesting isn't it. For people who are interested what we use on simple equipment. 1. lactate Pro as the metabolic equipment together with glucose meter , where we can check BS and keton at the same time and an ammonia checker. 2. Pulmonary assessment we do with spiro pet and Fit Mate.For quality of the breathing we add a bioharness as well as for wireless in the field information. 3. Cardio is given by bioharness and Polar with all the nice features from HRV to storage and print outs. 4. Oxymeter with combination of Spiro Tiger to assess the RBB ( respiratory balance point , as you would use a wattage trainer or a treadmill. 5. Tacx indoor for cycling as it is the cheapest and very sturdy equipment we like . Soft wear and printouts. Well that's where i drive Herb sometimes crazy with changes and mistakes i make, but the endproduct with the FaCT basic soft wear in combination with his simple excel sheet program is so nice , that even me as a computer Dummie does not make to many mistakes. 5. Once in a while we can convince a local doctor to use the hospital and the ops room to assess CO2 behavior in connection with some ideas about hypoxia and hypercapnia. Now you mix and match this and you run your own small field lab. We have as you can see for 2008 the idea already running of NOC centers where ever a person is interesting to build a nice small portable testing idea for NOC ( nearly optimal coaching ) for a small amount of money , compared to anything which is on the market just now. The toys ( see above will be all together below 15.000 dollar for all the testing and assessments. And last but not least we have with www. fact-education.com and Dr. Andrew Sellars and Ginny Sellars a group , who offers an incredible smart and nice education course product to introduce you gently but clear to our crazy world of thinking and assessment with the FaCT level courses. You learn the handling and the practical approach first hand and that what counts. Theory if we know everything but nothing works. Practice means everything works but nobody knows why . Have fun come back with dritic , inputs and questions. Let us share ideas and innovation to all get more fun out of what we like most mving and using body and mind. Have a great start for 2008 and I hope to see you on here or somewhere on the road. Juerg | ||
| Juerg New member Username: Juerg Post Number: 209 Registered: 04-2006 |
Case study summer 07. Andri Feldmann ( Kilimansharo 5890 m ) The purpose of the study was to collect information on lactate dynamic, heart rate dynamic and O2 sat and influence of respiratory changes on the above values. Lactate O2 /HR and try outs with different respiratory situation was taken during hiking, as well always at the camp in different altitude. Summary: The changes in O2 sat during rest followed pretty much the statistical info we had from various testing in altitude. Lactate values where always low and never above 2.5 mmol/L The interesting part was for sure the fact , that O2 sat would drop immediately by adding walking in any altitude. With the drop of O2 sat there was always immediately an increase of respiratory rate involved. To maintain a decent O2 sat the speed of walking had to be drop with increase of altitude. An at the last stage there had to be lot's of stops to be done to allow breathing and stabilization of O2 Sat which dropped in some cases to 70 % and slightly lower. There was never a problem with head ache or any other early signs of AMS. INteresting was: The guides never had a very low O2 sat 80 85 % even at the top , where 70 - 75 % was to be expected. There where 2 options for Andri to keep his O2 sat up: 1. Stop walking 2. controlled and clear slower and deper breathing , against the urge of higher and faster respiration rate. Question: During walking there was clear a higher demand of O2 as well a higher production of CO2. The CO2 as a clear stimmulus of higher respiration rate. ( To avoid to high of pCO2 ( hypercapnia ) Now if the O2 demand of walking was taken away and the CO2 production , it was clear that the respiration rate should go down ( perhaps ). Now maintaining a high respiration rate did not changed the O2 sat. Slower and concnetrated respiration rate ( deeper ) increased the O2 sat. This in resting as well as during walking. Problem : It needed a clear force of concentration to keep the respiration rate low and deep and the problem was a "fatigue " of the ability to breath this way over longer time. Question : Does a guide or a mountaineer need a much higher VO2 max to be able to keep O2 sat up. ? Would a higher Hb help to keep O2 Sat up ? Is it possible , that a better endurance ability of the respiratory system would help to keep the O2 sat up ? Well in our case , if Andri would have been able to keep the respiratory level low and the TV high , the O2 sat would have been similar to the one of the guides. Based on this info the question comes up , whether the preparation for an altitude trip or race may be better instead of focusing on EPO and Hb and Hct to train much more concentrate the respiratory system. So our next question was to see what different respiratory rates and TV changes may change , if we measure O2 intake. ( true )2 use ) So the next step was to convert a Spiro Tiger and connect it with a Fit Mate so we where able to check FeO2 / VO2 . respiratory frequency as well as total air volume and O2 sat to see , how in rest as well under easy and medium work load the respiration rate may influence the above parameters.. And if, what could be done and how to keep the possible positive results going up to higher intensities. Before we started this set on some case studies ( with Fabian Buesser / a physiotherapist from Switzerland , who work on this project in BC with us for 4 month ) we did some research in the existing literature , to see whether our open question was not answered already with some similar ideas. There is non or very little info out there, who ever looked into the situation of drammatical changes in respiratory situation on the outcome on O2 sat , Fe O2 trends, and change in VO2 and heart rate. We had some other very interestin infos in the idea of hypercapnia / hypoxia training in this question , which helped us further to develop some ideas and equipment to train to simmulate specific stress situation , depending on the possible weakness of a specific person. I will be back to show you some of this study ( summaries 0 and what inspired us to change the way we look at IHT and respiratory training and how we modify the usage of spiro tiger and our own prototype PET ( pulmonary endurance trainer ) to search for possible answers or trends in thgis field of opportunities.. So stay tuned for some surprising findings from some research groups and some of our own results in this direction . | ||
| Juerg New member Username: Juerg Post Number: 210 Registered: 04-2006 |
Okay before we go to our next personal case study I like to show you 2 studies , who inspired us to have a different approach to IHT , where we can use the spiro Tiger or our PET equipment. 1. VO2 max.EPO and red cell mass unrelated in trained athletes ? It is a study published in Medicine ans Science in Sport and Exercise 31(5) Supplement abstract 277 Titel : Effect of living in hypoxia and training in normoxia on sea level VO2 max and red cell mass. Rusko H.K. Tikkanen H Paavolainen L Hamalainen I, Kalliokoski K and Puranen A ( 1999)_ Cross country skiers and triathletes (m=17 : F = 5 ) were observed while training at sea level and living in simulated normobaric hypoxia ( sea level pressure but altitude oxygen reduction ) """ own comment same as go altitude or any other device for IHT and hypoxia . The simulated environment was experienced for 12 - 16 hours a day. The study lasted 25 days. VO2 max was measured before, immediately after, and one week after the experience while red cell mass and EPO were measured before , on days 2,11,18 25 and 4 - 7 days after . On days 2 and 25 EPO was 60 % and 14 % higher than before measure. EPO was not related to the increase in red cell mass, which changed + 5 % between before and immediately after the acclimatization period. Vo2 max changed in a different and delayed manner. It was only after the seven days post-experience that it improved by 3 % , for there was no significant change during experience itself. The absence of any relationship between VO2 max, red cell mass and EPO concentration is puzzling. These factors are supposed to be interrelated. For example EPO is purported to increase the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood, which is principal the reason for its popularity among endurance cyclists, but that was not observed here. In a similar vein, EPO is supposed to increase the concentration and numbers of red cells in the blood. However , here EPO concentrations and red cell mass were unrelated while VO2 max was unrelated to either factor. This study raises more questions than it answers and seems to "shake" some popular understandings about hemodynamics and usable oxygen capacity. Implication: An artificial environment of sea level pressure with simulated altitude oxygen reduction stimulates changes in red cell mass, EPO and VO2max but in a seemingly unrelated manner. Well interested isn't it . I will give you another case study done by Keisho Katayama , one of the japanese researcher on IHT soon. Which , if you combine the produced questions with our small cases , opens the specific questions we have , on how to use IHT ideas and hypercapnia in a more practical way and how to integrate this ideas into a training situation. See you later Juerg | ||
| Juerg New member Username: Juerg Post Number: 211 Registered: 04-2006 |
This second study was interesting because we had some open questions on some results we produced in a case study a bout 3 years ago. We tried to develop a way of using the Spiro Tiger as an hypoxy / hypercapnia equipment and than test the reaction on Hct and Hb and t cell population. With the help of Dr. Giles Turner ( fact NZ) we could sneak in an athlete for some regular blood testing every 2 weeks for 8 weeks. . The question was simple : Hypoxy may cause EPO release and therefor a reaction in Hct and Hb . Hypercapnia (pCO2 increase) is a potent anti inflammatory treatment as well as an immune stimulater. so we may see a reaction in white blood cell count as well as T cell population. We did IHT every second day for 3 -5 x 5 min with 5 min normoxy sequences in between. The first 2 x 2 weeks the training was done by either biking or walking on a treadmill simultaneous to the full training schedule. We chose an altitude simulation of app. 2800 m+- and controlled it with a O2 sat of 92 - 90 % but never lower than 90 %. ( will tell you later why and how we decided on this O2 sat as a security situation ) ( Case study done with Dr. A. Sellars in the OP of the G>R> Baker Hospital thanks for teh help ) Summary of the above idea. We had impressive changes after the first 4 weeks in Hct and Hb as well as in the t- cell and white cell population. ( we even got a short moment a lab report with some questions on what is going on with this person. ( Diagnosis ? ) During this 4 initial weeks we kept testing the possibility whether we could do the IHT without activity , by just sitting in a chair ( liek with other equipment on the market ). Pretty soon we ha a solution for that and after 4 weeks we did the same protocol but by sitting the whole time ( watching TV ). There were some interesting reactions at that time with no explanations. 1. The person was dramatically less tired after the workout in sitting , than in walking or biking , despite the fact that the intennsity in both activities was really low. 2. The blood values were not changing anymore, in fact the white blood cells would go back to normal and the Hct and Hb were the same with a slightly trend on starting to drop. We thought that this is a result of a typical functional reaction with a plateau reached after a certain time. ( Which is still possible ) Now here some interesting findings after some discussion with other people over the forum or mail. The new England journal of medicine had an interesting article on : effect of carbon dioxide on diaphragmatic function in human beings. The other article is written by Keisho Katayama et all, who tested hypoxy and hypercapnia in people with and without activity . The results in both articles may give us some possible explanations on the above results. So stay tuned and see what they had to write. Juerg | ||
| Juerg New member Username: Juerg Post Number: 212 Registered: 04-2006 |
Okay here first the abstract from the article by Keisho Katayama et all. " the effects of intermittent exposure to hypoxia during endurance exercise training on the ventilatory responses to hypoxia and hypercapnia in humans." Kesiho Katayama et all /Research Center of health, physical fitness and sports and space medicine research center, research institute of environmental medicine . Nagoya University Nagoya Japan. " The present study was performed to investigate the effects of a combination of intermittent exposure to hypoxia during exercise training for short periods on ventilatory responses to hypoxia and hypercapnia ( HVR and HCVR respectively) in humans. In a hypobaric chamber at a simulated altitude of 4'500 m( barometric pressure 432 mmHg ) , seven subjects ( training group ) performed exercise training for 6 consecutive days ( 30 min /day), while six subjects ( control group) , were inactive during the same period. The HVR.HCVR and maximal oxygen uptake (VO2 max) for each subject were measured at sea level before ( pre) and after exposure to intermittent hypoxia. The post exposure test was carried out twice.i.e. on the 1 st day and 1 week post exposure. It was found that HVR, as an index of peripheral chemosensitivity to hypoxia, was increased significantly (pVO2max increased significantly in the training group. These result would suggest that endurance training during intermittent exposure to hypoxia depresses the increment of chemosensitivity to hypoxia, and that intermittent exposure to hypoxia in the presence or absence of exercise training does not induce an increase in the chemosensitivity to hypercapnia in humans." | ||
| Juerg New member Username: Juerg Post Number: 213 Registered: 04-2006 |
Now here another abstract from an interesting study, who inspired us to do some simple follow up and develop some practical applications based on all this theory. The article was published in the New England journal fo Medicine. " Effect of carbon dioxide on diaphragmatic function in human beings" G . Juan. P Calverley, C.Talamo. J Schnader and C Roussos. Abstract: " We studied the effects of acute changes in the partial pressure of arterial carbon dioxide iopn diaphragmatic contractility and performance in four normal men. To study contractility we measured the ability of the diaphragm to generate pressure at a given level of excitation by determining the relation between the electrical activity of the diaphragm and transdiaphragmatic pressure during voluntary quasi-isometric inspiratory effort carried out at different levels of end- tidal carbon dioxide. Our result show that contractility was reduced with hypercapnia (when end - tidal carbon dioxide was 7.5 % or higher) although hypocapnia ( end tidal carbon dioxide, 3 per cent ) had no effect on diaphragmatic contractility.We also studied the development of diaphragmatic fatigue before and during carbon dioxide breathing. Subjects were studied at the same diaphragmatic tension time index, a value analogous to the more familiar myocardial tension time index, while the same inspiratory flow was maintained.Electromyographic signs of fatigue appeared at a lower tension time index during hypercapnia than during normocapnia, indicating that endurance is diminished during hypercapnia. These findings show that acute respiratory acidosis equivalent to an arterial carbon dioxide tension of about 54 mm HG decreases the contractility and endurance time of the diaphragm in human beings." | ||
| Juerg New member Username: Juerg Post Number: 214 Registered: 04-2006 |
Okay now you put all the above different ideas together. Okay I help a little bit . Our ideas was: 1. During a full FaCT IRIS we start to check O2 sat. Hmm some suggest in never will drop. well at least in our tests we see the drop in a lot of subjects ( true not in all ), but sometimes we see it in a subject and after certain workout we don't see it. So we tested different workouts to see what would change in O2 sat during a test. 2. We changed the IHT back to training druing workouts. 3. We had to investigate the level of pCH2 ( mmHg ) to be in the safe area for the subject exposed to IHT and hypercapnia. 4. We tested out on what level we would have to stop the drop of O2 sat ( and compared it to the altitude ) 5.We than surged the possibility to see hwat different respiratory pattern have as an effect on O2 sat as well as on Fe O2 % ( or tue O2 ) results. 6. The question was after that , whether a change in this values would have a measurable change in the LBP dynamic ? Nevertheless the simple definition of LBP ( lactate balance point ) is the area , where the body changes from a intramuscular oxygen dependent energy metabolisme to a not completely secure oxygen independent to some now as well oxygen independent energy production in the muscle invol;ved heavily in the activity. As one of the signs of changing this situation is the lactate dynamic. I nthis way we have with the LBP (FaCT testing ) the only objective way ) on assessing the change from controlled oxygen dependent metabolisme to the overflow and start of some involvement of oxygen independent energy production. Because we check the trend we have a much better way of assessing with less problems of pre test situations ( food / workout /and so on.) This testing as well we question the common ideas of 2 and 4 mmol as possible procedure but as well the current believe of LT ( lactate threshold as well as aerobic and anaerobic threshold. The LBP is a individual physiological unit , who can be repeated over and over again , independent of glucose intake and other factors. Now if O2 sat and FeO2 % are directly influenced by the respiratory behaviour of the subjects, than changes in the respiratory conditioning will have a profound effect on an athletes performance. ( change of the level of the metaboreflex - Dempsey ) So based on this idea we started to study different sports and the specific pattern of breathing in this different sports. Wowwww I think we moved initially in a completely wrong direction ( based on what we learned in school ) smile . Sorry for the presentations where we showed the test results in europe. Forget it all. . No there may be no specific force to push for a specific pattern , as much more a "lazy" pattern forced upon us by the movement in a specific sport. The implementation of the bioharness in combination with the fyit mate shows as a completely different idea and it may work surprisingly well. What we need is some more time and more tests over a longer period to see the effect. Summary. The breathing pattern can possibly be completely separated from the dynamic of the movement and in fact the movement of a sport may actually be enhanced by an independent pattern of motion and respiration . Where is the problem , well RSI (repetitive "strain " injury .) Because we always only focus on motion pattern we never actually see the problem of the respiration. Once the motion pattern is automatic , the respiratory pattern is there integrated as well , even though it may be not very economically. One of the typical pattern we see in cross country skiing , swimming, running to name some very clear one. Swimming . Remember in crawl how to stay afloat you where always breathing on the right side only with the typical asymmetric boy motion , and it took you a while you re-learn bilateral breathing but once you got the system , you improved the time clearly. No how smart is it to breath steady out into the water , till your lungs are empty , versus perhaps holding the air and have a more strong and short expiration inspiration. ( for sure over shorter distance ) think floating and so on. To be able to do this the body has to be able to extract O2 better but as well "tolerate " pCO2 a bit higher , without getting stressed by the CO2 dependent stimulation of the respiratory frequency . This lead to different ideas on breathing training for different sports. Questions " what do the body needs. More O2 extraction More CO2 elimination More inspiratory force (diaphragm training ) versus expiratory force ( abdominal training) and this as a respiratory endurance idea , so with avoiding hyperventilation or hypercapnia. or including hypoxia /hypercapnia as one other possible training effect. Well stay tuned for the follow up of this ideas. Juerg | ||
| Juerg New member Username: Juerg Post Number: 215 Registered: 04-2006 |
Okay before I get to the next small study on influence on respiratory pattern on O2 sat and FeO2 % I like to make some loud thinking . If we designe a running program or swimming or what ever: do we tell the person well just go all out and try to reach the other side of the pool as fast as possible. We may not even know whether he can swim ? So if we designe a respiratory program what do we do there, Why do people order huge bags for spiro Tiger and try to reach the highest respiratory volume anytime they try to breath. Why some people suggest just breath till you feel tired. Hmm the smae question may be treu in wattage on a trainer. Is it no normal that we see how hard we can go versus how long I can go . Do we historically always look , who is the fastes or the strongest . Hmm we may still be there . The 100 m olympic winner seems to be much better know as the marathon winner. Is it the addiction to better stronger faster, versus longer. Where do I go with this. Well it seems that with any type of traiing there is much more in the fact , taht technique and economy may play an important role in performance and durability of performance against burn outs. ASgain it is all about functional and structural. Is it working . See the muscle fiber situation in a scoliosis on the convex and concave side. The convex side has mainly STF fibers and the concave mainly FTF . Hmm would we not expect the other way arround. More strenght needed to hold against gravity on the convex side. Well it seems nature did not agree with that . Nature decided the steady slightly more work on the concave side can best be covered with STF fiber systems. Not hard work but steady work , So why do we give this people strength exercises with FTF stimmulation for the convex side ? does it work / often not . does it pay , yes , because people are coming back for more. Why do we use 5'000 dollar equipment to strengthen a biceps very unfunctionally , versus a rock on a river. Hmm does it work , well often not , does it pay , yes very good. 75 % of canadians or north americans , who have a membership in a fitness center for 1 year never really show up. So does it pay yes , does it work ? What is the solution ? you come up with smile see you again soon Juerg | ||
| Juerg New member Username: Juerg Post Number: 216 Registered: 04-2006 |
Okay here are we back . Remember : 1. Kilimansharo" We were able with concentrated slow and deep controlled breathing to increase the O2 sat. 2 problems: 1. As soon you walk under this situation , wou used more O2 , whcih than produced more CO2 . This stimulates your breathing frequency to avoid in crease of PCO2 , resp. to get ride of the P CO2 to avoid hypercapnia. If the CO2 is still too high (7>% % ) above ( normal ) the diaphragm would have a tendency top fatigue much faster. So if you know follow the stimmulus of the CO2 and you start to breath faster , but often as a result shallower, the % of the anatomical dead space in comparison to the now smaller TV ( tidal volume ) will increase and again increase the PCO2 with the above result. The faster fatigue of the diaphragm , but the same demand on O2 from the working muscles would lead to an increase in activation of the so called auxilliary respiratory muscles (helper ) like trapezii, scalenii ,sternocleidomastoideus and some others. Now despite the fact , that we learn in school , that this are respiratorY muscle , the fact is , they are not, they can mechanically help to lift the rips to increase the ability to fill up more air in the now expanded thoracal room , Thanks to a passive follow of the lungs ( vacuum between thorax and lungs ). Paralysing the respiratory center, does not paralyse this muscles.. They are mobilisation and partial stabilization muscles for the shoulder, neck /arm area. partially quadriaplegic people have to use this helper to get air in , due sometimes an dys-function of the diaphragm. In this cases they have a double role to play from moving and breathing , which is very hard to find a good balance. In todays situation we see lots of people , who can't breath any more. well they breath because they have to , but not with the diaphragm , but with the helpers so chest breathing versus diaphragm breathing. A nice picture of the overload of the diaphragm is often seen at the end of a middle distance run , where the athletes have to hold their arms on the legs to help with this "helper" extract enough air due to an increase of CO2 and a developped respiratoric acidosis. It is often so that you run out of air because you have too much air or you just don't have the strength to breath deep enough out so you can suck again in or vis versa. We can see thsi nicely by observing with the bioharness the "sinus wave shape when breathing and the way it changes during a step test. . I have now since 3 days an improvement of our PET prototype , where I can see and feel whether the inspiration or the expiration strength is better and if under the different intensities this is changing. So back to the faster breathing but less TV. Now concentration on the breathing pattern can maintain the TV for a while , but "fatigue " will stop this quality earlier or later during a workout. Now is this true as well on normal altitude in rest and or under easy workload below LBP Here the summary of a case study from Fabian Buesser ( Switzerland last year in Quesnel.Under resting condition sitting as well as under easy jogging ( ( km /h) there were very clear trends in O2 sat ( true O2 ) as well as total air volume and tidal volume changes. Here some numbers from the easy jog : speed was always 9 km/h We did 4 different possibilities. a ) normal spontaneous breathing ( no thinking ) b) very high frequency breathing 60 RR c) very slow breathing 14 RR d) Nose breathing Here the results. HR VO2max/Kg TAV RF TV FeO2 kcal/h a 141 25.6 55 25 2.2 15.6 % 665 b 141 38.0 96 59 1.6 17.0 878 c 143 32.2 51 14 3.5 14.5 746 d 146 30.0 54 22 2.5 15.3 690 So it is up to you to start making some thoughts what is going on. a) efficiency b) possible better stimulation for a training and perhaps change of efficiency . Now based on the above information I had some very interesting mails as well as phone calls . I will present them in the thread for spiro Tiger because they were related to this topic . see you there |