| Author | Message | |||
     Adam New member Username: Adam Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2011 |
Hello everyone. Just quickly. Myself and my wife Aerin and getting ready to bring FaCT lactate testing to a few horses at Woodbine in Ontario this year. We are both Chiropractors and my wife has a sub-specialty in animal chiropractic. I recently took the level II FaCT course to test cyclists and runners and integrate this into my practice as I treat many athletes and adding physiology is a great addition. However at the course learned about testing Horses and it has snowballed from there. I recently made contact with a horse friend who put me in contact with his trainer, that with my knowledge of humans and what I gleaned quickly from Andrew at the course blew them away. They are very excited for us to test and advise on training. We will have access to around 12 horses and will do the first round of testing at Woodbine in March. What do i need? I have a lactate pro from doing humans. But what else? We are looking at getting a gps hrm. What is better. Polar? or E-Trakka? I have read several posts about the lancet not work. So i need to get someone to draw blood from the jugular? Do most trainers do this? Any other information that can be passed along would be great. Typical testing protocols? Mistakes that were made by some that we would do well to avoid? As far as interpreting data? I am looking at it all from a human perspective. Anything massively different with horses? How can i interpret data differently? Thanks for any and all help. Adam | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 457 Registered: 04-2006 |
There are some interesting and fun challenges when testing horses, but all of them can be overcome with a bit of patience, practice and preparation. There are lots of opinions regarding blood sampling in horses. For our purposes, we need a very small sample, and some investigators have reported excellent reliability with using a lancet on the ear, or lower lip. We were lucky enough to have some skilled horsemen and women working with us at Mohawk last year, who demonstrated the ease of sampling from the jugular vein. I believe some horses will find the lancet a bit bothersome, while others will shy away from a jugular puncture. Either way has been shown to work in various studies. My best advice, is to begin your work with a trainer or vet with experience, and do some trial samples on a calm and cooperative horse, before attempting testing with the relatively high-strung horses you will face at Woodbine. As for the protocol itself...because you have some recent experience at the Level I/II Course in Hamilton, I will only suggest you consider the ability of the horses you are testing, and their structural integrity in doing testing that perhaps will push them over longer distance than they are use to. With the horses we tested at Mohawk, we were careful to not extend the step test portion too long (3 stages maximum), which allowed for more time to be spent determining LBP. Once LBP data is collected, and you are more aware of the horses physiology, you can adapt future tests to the athlete, and also collect more data in the step test portion of the test. As for monitors. The Polar is the only equipment we have used and feel comfortable with in horses. I might suggest you trial a foot pod unit, rather than a GPS for tracking speed and distance. However, with testing on a standard track, you can easily use the time/lap as a means of recording the horse's speed, and use the FaCT software to help chart the steps. The similarities between lactate trends in horses and humans is fascinating, but will need to be looked at with an open mind. The horses have a wider range of HR, from the low 30's to the low-mid 200s, and they respond very quickly to anxiety and excitement, which makes interpreting true HR during testing challenging at times. Don't believe what you read about "thresholds" etc., the conclusions being made in equine literature are based on the same fundamental mistakes made in the human literature over the past 50 years. As we have always recommended, use the initial assessment as a baseline. A starting point for making some decisions about training and developing of skills and strengths. The, retest to see if the changes you expect from your training/recovery program are working. We will look forward to hearing about your experience here, and answering specific questions on equine assessments in the near future. | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 63 Registered: 09-2008 |
To reiterate Andrews comments, Your plan will be tough as you aren't allowed needles or sharps on the track. Better to be off track at a training center. Be careful as your trainer could get in trouble. One of the on track vets might have to pull the blood for you and then you can expect a bill for the work. Additionally be careful of squandering your trainer good will. The track is a tough place to "just play around" with ideas. You might be better off finding someone on this board to work with until you get a solid idea of what you are offering.(there are a few here from Ontario) Good luck, but the track is the last place I'd start. (just my opinion) | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3054 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks Gallop for the nice inside view. It sounds exactly as it was 25 - 30 years ago in the human field of testing , when we started in St. Moritz to do lactate testing with athletes and the " educated " group of people where in panic , that the street boys would take "blood" from the athletes. Some major discussion and panic there. This is still going on now here in North America with some bigger test center worrying about taking blood from a finger like millions of diabetic do every day multiple times. They are so crazy , that they believe you need an apprenticeship to take a simple blood sample and there are some major organisation who still try to fight this ideas and practice, as they believe you need at least a Ph.D to take a sample. I can tell you that I see many "professionals" having some major problem to take a finger sample proper but I see many 6 - 10 year old diabetic I kids who can do that blind. Good luck and give yourself some additional 10 - 15 years time to try to get this ideas on the track. Once this is possible you may see, that you could switch to noninvasive ideas of assessing LBP ideas with NIRS over a distance of 1000 m and live on the screen. Hard to believe but that may take even longer to accept that. | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 92 Registered: 07-2008 |
What Gallop means is that on the race tracks it is illegal to have a needle in your possession, much less use them on your horses or anything else. This is because of all the illegal doping that goes on at the race track, not because people don’t know how to draw blood. This is something that will never be accepted on the race track and trainers that possess needles risk having their licenses revoked. | |||
| Adam New member Username: Adam Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2011 |
Andrew. How did you do the testing at Mohwak? If needles aren't allowed near the track and trainers aren't allowed to have them, how are people doing this? | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 462 Registered: 04-2006 |
We had permission from the track to do the testing. It requires some negotiation and some education to allow you to sample lactate from horses, and help the officials realize you are doing something safe and legal. | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 64 Registered: 09-2008 |
If you still want to get hands on, I'd suggest you think about doing some HR measurements and leverage some of the gold mine of info that Bill Pressey (he posts here) has come up with. He's basically using a Polar HR monitor w/GPS and doing some normal data analysis. That should be pretty straightforward to do, will likely yield the trainer some info and will get you off on the right foot at the track. (I'm not sure if you need to get the HR setup blessed at the track though because there's another rule about " electrical devices" being banned (some people have used shock devices and they are expressly banned) I'm sure Woodbine is enlightened that way, though. I'd say Bill's your best bet for info on transitioning from the non-racetrack world to the track environment. It is worth a read to just go through his old posts here. Of course the million dollar question is once you have lots of HR data and lets say you manage to get some LBP measurements, now what? If you start with the HR data, you'll get a feel for how most people train their horses and you will notice that unless this trainer is really willing to stick their neck out (most aren't) that trying anything new will be quite resisted. Not saying don't go for it, just saying don't dive in with your eyes closed. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 463 Registered: 04-2006 |
Wow, there sure seems to be a lot of people saying this is a tough idea to work with horses. Our experience has been quite a bit different. With very open discussions, and very open minds at the few tracks we have worked at, Mohawk being one of them. So, I would start with the open discussion with the track manager, and go from there. There is lots of support in the literature for doing safe testing with horses, and plenty of locations in Europe doing lactate testing daily with both thoroughbred and harness horses. I agree with the comments regarding going in with your eyes open, but also with an open mind, asking others to open theirs as well. | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 93 Registered: 07-2008 |
Using a HR monitor is no problem at any of the tracks that I have ever been to either, including one of the toughest ruled tracks, California. As I mentioned before, needles are ruled off due to abuse situations. Need to ask the Stewards about that situation, not the track manager because he is not authorized to make exceptions to the rules. | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3066 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thansk for this interesting inside view on the "human " problematic in horse training " There are some similar problems once in a while in human testing , depending on who is scared to "loose" client. The discussion is about the " education " and certification on : Who has the "right" to take blood on humans for lactate testing. There are two points to make. There are two different type of needles. a) the once where you actually pull blood into a container b) the once you simply "scratch " the skin for a blood drop on the surface. Millions of north american are doing this daily with the majority of them being diabetics. So there is a clear difference here between needle and needle. The second point is the " risk " of taking a blood sugar or lactate sample. Now what we do is, that people take the sample on their own if there are some concerns. ( Smile true not possible on horses ) What I am working on for the moment is for a noninvasive method on taking the information on lactate and oxygenation , as in certain sports like swimming and water sports in general it is very difficult to take properly lactate sample. As well in field sports like cross country skiing , when it is very cold and others. So what we see as we go along , that with NIRS we have great info and soon the ability to see live without even stopping the subjects to know how metabolically he or she will produce the needed ATP. In simple but wrong words. We can know the LBP noninvasive by looking at the Hb diff and the tHb as well as TSI %. I tried yesterday the test on my goats to see, whether it could be used on sled dogs and other animals and it work just fine and clear signals. Here a print form an assessment we did where we used ( Black ) OHb diff ) and green blood volume trend. In animal care more and more vet clinics buy teh lactate Pro and make the testing pretty much like in human with the suggestion they due in europe , where you take a skin sample and not from the jugularis. I tried this as well a few days ago on my relative wild goats as one of them was sick and I had to see, whether she had a sepsis or a digestive problem. So I took the sample simply on her ear, somewhat jumpy but no problem at all.  on this printout you can see very nicely ( green , where teh blood volume starts to drop and where the Hb difference plateaus and drops and plateaus as a simple way of assessing STF and FTF zoning and the LBP. We confirmed this in this case with some actual lactate sampling and now collect many more samples to see, whether it is possible. The university of Essex is doing some similar ideas and a group in Switzerland and we hope to be able to exchange the information over the next few years and see where we end up. | |||
| Binmar_racing Advanced Member Username: Binmar_racing Post Number: 23 Registered: 07-2008 |
Adam, who was the trainer? Your success with the ORC (their the ones that will allow you to use needles or not) will depend on that trainer’s reputation and pass history in regards to positive post-race test. Success will depend on how it is done. The rules states: "hypodermic needle or any other device which could be used for an injection of infusion into a horse of any substance." This could easily preclude a blood-collecting needle. I've used them in the past (off track) and it works well. You can bring the lactate pro to the tip of the needle or if you are real careful (a bit hard) you can pull the needle out with a drop of blood on the end on the needle. The ORC is responsible for the welfare of racing and that includes the horse. I’ve dealt with them in the past regarding racing without shoes, which at the time was illegal. Today, they have changed their ruling and I can run on all surfaces without shoes. So changes can be done. Good luck! | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3067 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here a short info from europe, where many coaches take the blood directly over a skin sample into the lactate Pro. Same is now increasingly done in North America and we have more and more customers from the Vet. field of blood lactate testing. " Evaluation of the usefulness of the portable device Lactate Pro for measurement of lactate concentrations in equine whole blood Marianne M. Sloet van Oldruitenborgh-Oosterbaan1, Erica T. W. van den Broek and Astrid J. Spierenburg Correspondence: 1Corresponding Author: Marianne M.S. van Oldruitenborgh-Oosterbaan, Department of Equine Sciences, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Utrecht, the Netherlands, Blood lactate measurements are commonly used in exercising horses to determine the onset of lactate accumulation and in colic patients to assess clinical status and to indicate prognosis. To study the usability of a portable blood lactate meter based on dry chemistry (Lactate Pro), the data from this instrument were compared to data from a laboratory-used lactate meter based on wet chemistry (ABL 605 blood gas analyzer [ABL]). Heparinized blood samples were obtained from horses participating in a jumping experiment (n = 9), from horses cantering at maximal speed on a racetrack (n = 7), and from patients admitted to the Department of Equine Sciences at Utrecht University for severe colic (n = 13). Seventeen of these samples were tested in duplicate on both instruments to determine the repeatability of the measurements. Blood lactate concentrations measured with the Lactate Pro ranged from 0.8–17.6 mmol/liter and with the ABL from 1.0–18.6 mmol/liter. The correlation between lactate concentrations obtained using the Lactate Pro and values from the ABL was 0.90, and the relationship was represented by the following formula: y = 0.90 · x + 0.36, indicating a linear relationship between values produced by the ABL and Lactate Pro. The repeatability for the Lactate Pro was high (0.997), which is comparable to the ABL (0.999) ". | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3071 Registered: 04-2006 |
The most common way how trainers in europe and Australia take blood lactate in horses is over a lancet rather than a needle. perhaps this may eliminate some of the discussions. Accuracy is tested over and over again. here a short part of one of the studies The correlation between the lactate concentrations in peripheral blood collected by lancet puncture and jugular venous blood using Lactate-pro (L-pro). The study was performed in Thoroughbreds under training for races, using . We did lancet work on Polo horses over 25=5t years back in the snow in St. Moritz for a study. | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 217 Registered: 07-2008 |
Juerg Please explain, exactly, how trainers in Europe and Australia take blood samples from sweating exercising horses using a lancet. I would like very much to communicate with them directly, could you please share direct contact information? Thank You Joe | |||
| Adam New member Username: Adam Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2011 |
Met with the trainers today. They are very interested in the data I can provide with lactate and HR info. Our plan is to act as consultants. They have 12 horses that we will test/monitor with either HR or lactate (providing woodbine gives us permission). I will advise on what I am seeing regarding the data and how training should be manipulated. i have also been given carte blanche to train a horse of theirs that "should" be fast, but isn't. They move into woodbine in March. Seeing as we need about 8 miles to do a LBP test (or am I wrong)I was going to get our test horse to start with some LSD training. before we get her to woodbine. Now i don't know horses at all so you will have to forgive my ignorance. My wife is the horse person. Does the horse need to be ridden or is lunging for 15-20min ok? Throw out your ideas so that we can make a change for this horse that I am getting to work with. Once you talk people through the physiology they seem to be much more open to trying something new. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Adam- Are we talking thoroughbreds up at Woodbine? Be careful with your 'carte blanche' prospect, too often guys like us are given these projects - and when we cant turn them into superstars, their connections use that ammo to scoff at our methods. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 464 Registered: 04-2006 |
Great work Adam, and I am really happy to hear you had a positive response. I had a similar response form the open minded people at Mohawk, and think there is a huge desire from many trainers to learn more and try new things, as long as they are convinced it is both safe and potentially beneficial for their athletes. Remember, you can shorten the test by simply taking the horse close to race pace for one mile to achieve lactate accumulation, and focus on attaining LBP afterwards. OR, you can collect data on a standard step test to use as guide information for changes in physiology as a result of training and recovery. So, with horses, we have often found separating the "tests" so as not to run into too much distance, especially for the "new" horses to the program. I look forward to hearing your progress, and seeing the results of your testing here. | |||
| Adam New member Username: Adam Post Number: 4 Registered: 01-2011 |
Thanks Andrew. As far as the carte blanche comment I made earlier. They have already written off the horse. I already told them that my ideas may not work. They are very excited about the data that can be gleaned from HR and LBP, even to apply to their current training. I am going into this project not afraid of failing. In one month I have made exceptional inroads into the race world of thoroughbreds. So help me make this horse fast. If we fail, then so be it. Because if we are right and this works then not only will we revolutionize horse racing in america (because in europe i hear they are doing more physiology stuff like this), but also help make the sport healthier for the horses in it. IDEAS PLEASE. How should I advise long slow distance training? Give me sample workouts!A | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2008 |
I hope I am wrong, but I can't imagine you will get a thoroughbred trainer to allow you to go race pace for a mile in training, or to commence any LSD longer than 1.5 miles. Maybe think about breaking LSD into one mile interval repeats at first, with adequate rest in between? Week 1 at one mile, week 2 at 1.25, week 3 at 1.5, etc. of course only advancing should LBP dictate improvement is being made. Speed wise, start perhaps with a 4min/lick, 15mph and progress. Again, LBP will determine specifics but I give these numbers as an example. I also caution you about telling an exercise rider to look at his watch for HR info when he is riding a 1100lb animal at 20+mph. Remember FACT followers that the absence of a sulky (or treadmill) complicates such simple things. Thoroughbred HR seems to be a bit wilder and full of artifacts than those of standardbreds. So your rider may be in a trot and look at his watch only to find a recently startled horse showing 211bpm. Then again, Canadian horsemen seem to be much more progressive than those here in the US. I have about a dozen training clients worldwide, and zero are US-based. South America, Canada, Europe, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, but not Lexington, KY. Go figure. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 465 Registered: 04-2006 |
I will start with the same admission as always...I am not a horse person. So, the ideas you see me discuss here are based on our limited experience with a few "old" horses, and the successes and failures we have had so far. As you say Adam, you are making great inroads, and having a horse they have written off is the perfect place to start. You really have nothing to lose. So my first advice is to be patient. Remember, the goal should be first to build structures for long-term success, and it will take some time to develop those. Think about what was discussed in Level I, in terms of oxygen dependent pathways and the limitations to performance, and you will begin to develop your own ideas on how to "train" your new athlete. If the goal is to develop mitochondria and capillaries, I feel the only suitable evidence for long term structural development, is at an intensity well below LBP, for as long as the horse can maintain proper form without causing damage to joints. You may need to start very slow and easy, and build up the joint structures to support the longer duration. You will see posts here that recommend VERY HIGH intensity work to better develop bone strength, but I would suggest that most studies so far to date looking at bone development were done over relatively short periods of time, and that bone and joint health are in fact hindered by the high intensity sessions prescribed by many trainers. Only time will tell if I am correct in this idea which has been proven in multiple studies in humans. The next consideration is looking at the concept of speed in a different light. I am not sure if John discussed the concept of cadence and stride length, but this is something that we can talk about, though again, my ideas were met with resistance by some, and nods of approval by others who had worked outside the box in the past with good success. So, start with finding the limitation...peripheral structures, mobility that could affect stride length, foot speed, cardiac system, respiratory. If you want to have fun, place a Polar foot pod on the front nail, and actually measure the cadence of your horse at different speeds. Then we can talk specifics about ideas to improve it over time if you feel it is a limiting factor. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 466 Registered: 04-2006 |
All HR data can be collected after the session through the Polar Protrainer software, and at "LSD" pace which we prefer to call "controlled intensity training stimulus", the horse won;t be moving 20+mph, in fact, the training will likely be at VERY LOW intensity based on the results of testing we have seen in this population in the past. In this way, the session would not need to be broken into intervals, but rather sustained for much longer periods, with the ability to see HR data very easily through the session, especially with the aid of a WINDLINK that allows the HR data to be displayed on a computer from 20m away, which means, every time the horse comes past Adam on the side of the track, he can see what the rate is, without the trainer having to look at the watch. Adam, can then call out to increase speed or ask the trainer to slow down if the HR is not in the appropriate zone. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2008 |
If you are going to travel so slow, why not put them on an exercise wheel like Leonie sells at this point? I think it will be easier to get one on there for the required hour than it will be to get a rider who is used to being in the saddle for 15mins at a time. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 467 Registered: 04-2006 |
The only issue I have with the wheel is the pattern of footsteps being learned by moving in such a short loop. However, I do not argue that it might be a great way to build some structures, but I believe that a natural motion outside would be better. Again, as you say, the issue is more with the rider, than with the horse. So, once Adam has a rider that is open to the idea of taking the horse out for longer, the issue is much less significant. We never said it was easy to train a horse with these specific goals in mind. Simple perhaps, but not necessarily easy. As always, Bill makes good practical points from a true horseman's perspective, and why he is so well respected by those in the equine world. What Adam is trying to do is to seek a different way than the North American status quo. And as Bill mentioned, there is not a lot of business with forward thinking here...yet. With Adam, and Jennisse, Joe, and others beginning to build the momentum, perhaps there will be a slow change to acceptable training practices. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2008 |
Thanks for the kind words Andrew, Adam and his wife and I are going to get together soon, and I am going to spill the beans on everything I have seen and done over the past few years. I have a guy in Chile with an ideal environment to utilize your LBP stuff, I hope soon to attend a class and get underway as I have learned so much from all of these posts. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2008 |
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pd f/sports/20091003-racing-document.pdf By the way, above is a typical month's vet bill for an elite American thoroughbred. It was drug out during court proceedings and paints a very good picture of what goes on behind the scenes. You will be shocked and amazed, and not in a good way. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2008 |
While LBP is certainly more accurate and individualized, I'm not sure many thoroughbred trainers can utilize the extra info. For example, HR/GPS may tell me to instruct a rider to gallop at 21mph, and LBP may tell me the ideal pace is actualy 22.9mph - but the rider is likely to skip around between 20 and 25mph anyway. Again, if we are talking sulky or treadmill, this point is invalid. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 468 Registered: 04-2006 |
I agree that there are more challenges with "following" the recommendations that we discuss in theory here. The issue for us is much less the exact speed the horse needs to move, but rather the physiologic stimulus we are providing. So, in some cases, we may allow the speed to drift quite far, as long as the HR remains relatively stable, in hopes of continuing a constant stimulus over a given period of time. In this case, the trainer would be able to help the horse find that intensity, and only check occasionally to ensure the stimulus is maintained. Bill, it will be an absolute pleasure to have you attend one of our courses at some point, and your presence would surely make for some greta discussions and debates. The vet bill is truly astounding for a number of reasons...the sheer quantity of drugs being administered, and the relative cheapness of those drugs compared to the human equivalents. The same volume would cost up to 10x if prescribed to humans. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2008 |
What this team did with Allentown was a huge eye opener for me, you are all to be heartily congratulated. Respected vet Dr. Bramlage was quoted in the New York Times saying such a vet bill was 'typical' for thoroughbreds. I posted that bill on my blog at www.horsetrainingscience.blogspot.com and was overwhelmed with responses defending the practice as true 'horsemanship', if you can believe that. American classic races are being won in the same times in the 2000's as they were in 1920-1930, despite a million (literally) efforts to selectively breed the best to the best. That is not the case in the harness world. They are covering a mile 12 seconds faster than they were in 1930. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 469 Registered: 04-2006 |
The lack of progress in the Thoroughbred world over the past 80 years bodes well for those of use willing to try some healthy and legal ways of improving physiology. I am happy to hear you feel good about our progress with Allentown. Still more work to do, and I think we have only begun to scratch the surface. Adam and Jennisse are the second wave of FaCT trained people interested in using what they have learned with people to help the equine world. | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3072 Registered: 04-2006 |
The person with the most experience, as they did the full reseaerch with the lactate Pro is : Mitsutoshi KOBAYASHI Journal of Equine Science, To get his contact you mail to Journal of equine Science as he contributes research articles to that journal. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2008 |
Juerg- Kobayashi: I've been trying to access his stuff online for 3 years, do you have any info you can pass on? I even tried to buy them from that journal, but my requests were ignored repeatedly. | |||
| Adam New member Username: Adam Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2011 |
OK. So we want to build structures in this horse. Andrew if you remember my FaCT tests at the level II course we discovered that I could put out huge power, but couldn't sustain anything. I have the history of racing my bike, so the power/coordination is there, but my base was garbage, so I couldn't hold power for long at all because I hadn't raced/ridden consistently for 4 years. This is the same area that I think most thoroughbreds fall down in. I asked the trainer if the horse could go 8 miles and he said no way. 2-3 at max. From now till March when the horse goes to the track I want to do Long Slow Distance stuff. Build some structure. Similar to what I need to do to get back to my former glory on the bike (Ryder was a year older than me on the mtn bike when we were juniors). Is it possible to do like 10mph for 5miles? Has anyone ever done this for a thoroughbred? I wanted to get the horse up to 15miles, but maybe thats totally out of reach. But going dead slow 10mph at like 140bpm or less would build the horses structures exceptionally in a way no race horse had in the past. Horse people please way in on my thoughts. Am i crazy? Is a 15mile LSD workout unattainable going slow? Slowly work up to it? | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 63 Registered: 10-2008 |
As a point of reference, when some of my two year olds jog at 10mph their HRs are in the 110bpm range. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2008 |
 Here is a jog chart at about 10mph from the Polar gear. Note this was on polytrack, not dirt. | |||
| Adam Junior Member Username: Adam Post Number: 6 Registered: 01-2011 |
Ever jog them longer? What is the chance of overuse injury if you were to jog them for 30min? Lots of horses go slow for long periods of time right? I bet 110bpm for 30min 2 times a week would be a good start for training structures. If we forget about the distance and speed and just go with a 110-130bpm for time, I wonder how mitochondia would respond? Anyone ever try this? What about doing really high speed intervals less than length of a race, but getting a horse to tie up? Build massive amounts of lactate and h+ and then walk the horse. I used to do similar intervals on my bike all the time. Gradually I get better at clearing lactate and could push further, faster. Same principles apply? Has this been done? Again i know nothing about horses, nor how they are traditionally trained. A | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3073 Registered: 04-2006 |
"But, we breed the equine Michael Jordans and Marion Jones(track) a million times (80 years X 12,000 times a year) conservatively, and we still cannot run Classic races any faster than we did in 1930. What is wrong with this picture Unfortunately they where more like horses rather thna proper training they where both under drug use ( Balco scandal ) and not really a good example to show as a comparison for improvement. | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 65 Registered: 09-2008 |
Ever jog them longer? What is the chance of overuse injury if you were to jog them for 30min? First you need to define jog in the horse. Overuse injury is rare. "Normal" injury is common. Your injury rate will approach 100% if you take them out tomorrow and go 30 minutes. It will approach 0% if you take the time and build them to it. As a guideline, a safe approach seems to add a 1/4 mile a week to off day mileage. Lots of horses go slow for long periods of time right? Yes, but not TB race horses. They could, but they don't. I bet 110bpm for 30min 2 times a week would be a good start for training structures. Not enough (my opinion). Like chickensoup, it can't hurt, but likely won't get you a measureable imnprovement. If we forget about the distance and speed and just go with a 110-130bpm for time, I wonder how mitochondia would respond? Anyone ever try this? Lots of people have tried, but few sustain it. Response in horses is pretty similar to humans. What about doing really high speed intervals less than length of a race, but getting a horse to tie up? (Tie up= bad) Don't worry you'll get the hang of it  Interval training in my opinion is the way to go for TB improvement. Unfortunately it is really hard to implement properly and safely. Most people who try either fail because the horse gets hurt and the blame goes to the intervals, though it's doubtful the intervals had anything to do with it. Others fail because of the peer pressure at the track. Someone might see you doing 3 x 1 mile at or near race speeds and they call the stewards and say your abusing your horse. Then you're spending your time defending yourself against morons. Since a misstep can injure a horse, just by virtue of doing so many more foot falls, everything needs to be more perfectly controlled. Any slip up = injury. Others fail because it takes a long time to do. Owners get itchy. The want to race, they pay you every day and they want results. 101 reasons why it can't work. Most don't perservere. I have only ever come across one reasoned, though nonscientific, rebutal to interval effectiveness. It was basically " I've done it, I've improved them, but it isn't worth the time or the hassle." I can't argue with that. In racing it easier to cull and move on to the next. It is often prudent to do so. Build massive amounts of lactate and h+ and then walk the horse. ...Same principles apply? Absolutely. As long as you get there slice by slice. But it also doesn't matter if your race times aren't going down. Anything is appropriate if your race times drop like you want them to. Has this been done? Yes, but it is known to be one of the hardest things you can undertake at the racetrack. Again i know nothing about horses, nor how they are traditionally trained. I see you're in Newmarket. Looks like I work 10 mins from your office. If you want a crash course I'd be happy to help. Maybe we can bootcamp ya up to speed. Email me at khennze at hotmail | |||
| Cranwell New member Username: Cranwell Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2009 |
I have been following this forum for over a year. Juerg has discovered the problem in the Thoroughbred industry. Despite nearly 400 years of selection our horses are not running faster. A majority of the people making the breeding decisions are breeding to sell horses as opposed to breeding a race horse. It sounds absurd but this is a problem. This problem is compounded by the fact that most trainers are more concerned with training their clients to pay the bill than they are concerned with developing athletes. I would love nothing more than to use LBP (as it was presented at REPS I) as a training tool. The problem for all of us in the Thoroughbred industry is the only way to effectively measure LBP is with the use of a high speed treadmill. Unfortunately these are not readily available. The typical Thoroughbred horse can not withstand the rigors of a three to four mile gallop with the heart rate in the 160-180 range. As I read this forum I am constantly trying to glean ideas for utilizing LBP in Thoroughbreds without damaging the bone and soft tissue of the animal. Any Suggestions? | |||
| Binmar_racing Advanced Member Username: Binmar_racing Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2008 |
"The typical Thoroughbred horse can not withstand the rigors of a three to four mile gallop with the heart rate in the 160-180 range." Sorry Dr Cranwell but I would have to disagree or someone forgot to tell me. All my TBs do it on a daily basis. Their slow days consist of a ˝-mile trot warm-up, 3 to 4 miles gallop at a heart range ranging from 170 to 185, and than ˝-mile trot cool-down. (see attached workout). I even did 3 miles at a 2-minute clip (30 mph/ 48.9 kph) with a very fit horse. Also, they are all turn out 4 to 8 hours a day. They all came out of the racing season sound and health, except for one horse that got kicked in the field. I run predominantly without lasix and any pre-race medication. I injected only one joint all year because I was going into a stakes race. It made no difference and I regret doing it. These in themselves should be enough to deem it successful. However, I know the industry does not feel likewise unless you win races so for that reason I will say I made $210,643 (from Equibase summary for Woodbine) in purse money with 7 racehorses of which two were 2 year olds and three were horses given to me for free. Very cheap horses initially. Sorry, but I take it personally when people say TBs are weak and cannot be trained more than a mile a day. I feel they are weak because the industry treats them like porcelain dolls and over medicate them. My 2 cents worth.
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| Binmar_racing Advanced Member Username: Binmar_racing Post Number: 25 Registered: 07-2008 |
Forgot to give my suggestions. Build them up slowly. ALWAYS know their heart rate, and gallop at + or - 5 bpm of the targetted HR. Easier said then done at times, but + or - 10 bpm is doable. Once they get fitter know their lactate and adjust your gallop HR based on lactate. I love two-minute clips. Finally, no shoes they stay sounder. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2008 |
Both of you are correct: 'traditional' tbs trained conventionally for years will have trouble going 2-4 miles slow because 90% of them have been irreversibly compromised by poor training, drugs, and racing when they shouldn't be doing so. A 3yo+ will be tough to 'fix', my opinion is get them at an early 2, put them through the Nunamaker protocol first with limited gallop distances and 2-3x bursts of speed for bone and soft tissue development at this crucial stage. THEN, get your LBP on. Allentown, as a standardbred, while the results were fantastic, was never trained as softly as thoroughbreds have been. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 66 Registered: 10-2008 |
'Name' trainer Michelle Nihei, I have watched her jog her horses slowly for an hour at Trackside here in Louisville 2 years ago. All the while being berated by fat trainers and lazy exercise riders. She was a former asst for Pletcher, but has a degree in neurophysiology so she thinks for herself. Last fall she had a runner in the Breeders Cup classic. I doubt she is an LBPer by name, but she is by practice. Good looking as hell, too. | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 94 Registered: 07-2008 |
I have been doing the LSD, get up to 6 miles of galloping every day, with all of my horses in training since in the early 80’s and yes, on the racetracks in California and barefooted, I still do the same thing today in KY. Trainers used to scoff at me until my horses began to run very well and stayed sound for many years. I just had to learn to close my ears and follow my programs. However, what I wanted to share with you is the most extreme training that I ever did with any Thoroughbred was with a 2 year old in KY. This program was an opportunity for me to see what Thoroughbreds were really made of. A bit of background is necessary here because I did not start this horse, the owner of this horse started training him when he was an early yearling, using a Jeep and the dirt roads in Iowa. He wore a heart rate monitor every time and no other tack but did have shoes on. This horse, Screamer, would gallop 9 to 15 miles at 15 to 20 miles per hour almost every day. The owner would do some speed plays with him also while holding onto the lead rope from his Jeep. As crazy as that sounds, this was the condition this horse came into me as a two year old in April 1999. When I got this horse, he was on free choice sweet feed and free choice alfalfa hay and I still had to break him. His body condition was good, he was long legged and greyhound looking. The owner wanted me to continue with his training program as laid out below, which I agreed to do. I used my treadmill some of the time but most of the work outs were done on the racetrack 5 minutes from my farm. This horse was nominated to the 2 year old Cradle Stakes at River Downs. Easy Days: On Monday, Wednesday and Friday 10 miles galloping, HR 155-165 max followed by 8-10 strides at 30 mph or 15 second furlongs, strides are 3/16 mile in length, trot between. Hard Days: On Tuesday and Thursday rotate between phase 1 and phase 2: Phase 1: Oxygen Debt Workout Start pace of 213-223 heart rate with recovery of 175 within Ľ mile or terminate. Four intervals, 1 mile, 1-1/2 miles, 2 miles, then 1-1/2 miles at 17 seconds per furlong. Phase 2: Lactic Workout 3 x 3/8 mile works at 13 seconds per furlong, recovery of 155 3 x Ľ mile works at 13 seconds per furlong, recovery of 155 Phase 3: Legs NOT LUNGS 3 sets of 8 intervals of 1/8 mile at 12 seconds or faster, in 3/8 mile recovery HR to 155 Complete recovery, HR to 90 between sets Saturday: Gallop 20 minutes @ 203 HR, app. 15 second furlongs, key is 203 HR, slow down to maintain HR @ 203 Sunday: 16 miles @ HR of 155-165 max followed by 8-10 strides at 30 MPH or 15 second furlongs. Strides are 3/16 mile in length, trot between. I did all the riding myself and jockeyed this horse in most of his races so I got to feel the results of the training. The result of all of the above training was that Screamer beat one horse in the Cradle Stakes and ran up the track in all his other races that year. After doing all of the above, I was allowed to use this horse in the Flare Nasal Strip study that Dr. Ray Goer and I did for the Flare Company. We did BAL’s on all the horses, used indwelling catheters for lactate testing and a V02 monitor for oxygen testing. The study was about 6 months long and more of my horses in training and racing were used as well. Screamers V02 was very high at 185, his lactates were very low. Finding this out was golden to me because I knew that his training and nutrition program needed to change drastically. I was lucky and got control of his training program at the end of 1999 early 2000 and immediately put him on a 37% protein diet using Whey Protein and did mostly strength training on my treadmill using elevation from 5 to 7 degrees while galloping and working. His V02 dropped to 165 and his lactates showed up around 24 ml/mmol. The next time I raced him he improved tremendously and by the end of the season, had run 2nd twice, once photo’d for 1st. Interesting looking back on this horses training charts because he would always work his fast works starting in 11 and 12 second furlongs, but by the time he would be past 3/8 mile he would fall off to 13,14 and 15 second furlongs. Getting back to the forum question of can Thoroughbreds do a lot of mileage the answer is YES, YES and YES. This was an extreme case but I know it can be done. This horse stayed very sound through all of this and was happy doing it. | |||
| Binmar_racing Senior Member Username: Binmar_racing Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2008 |
"A 3yo+ will be tough to 'fix'" I believe age is irrelevant. One of those free horses was a five-year-old maiden. She has made $134,000 as a 6 & 7 year old. She gallops 3 to 4 miles a day. I got a 6-year-old last year and he handle that distance fine and his performance improved also. Previously to us getting him, his monthly vet bills were $1200/month, numerous lameness issues. Once he started galloping 3 to 4 miles a day no lameness issues and vet billed dropped down to $80/month (All endoscopes to get him off lasix) Again I feel the factor is increasing the distance slowly and UNDER CONTROL, meaning a controlled HR and not the horse determining his speed. Having said that, all these senior horses had to be retrained mentally to gallop correctly and under control. To me that is more the factor than age. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 470 Registered: 04-2006 |
Leonie's example above demonstrates very well the principle of structural and functional training. The initial years of long miles of training allowed for excellent utilization of lactate as a fuel, and a strong sound body. The switch to more functional training later in the career allowed for the horse to make better use of the structures that were developed behind the jeep. We can argue about what the different intervals weremactually doing in terms of "oxygen deficit" and "lactic" intervals. However, what Leonie showed clearly was that the change in stimulus after years of structural training can have profound effects on race performance. These last few days of posts is VERY reassuring for me, in that there are now a number of clear examples of thoroughbreds being trained successfully over many years, and many miles, with good success and healthy outcomes. This conversation should help Adam and Jennisse and others with their ideas and confidence when presenting to potential clients. Thank you to everyone who has contributed their thoughts and experiences in this open discussion. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2008 |
Also, key to Leonie's success was noticing during the Flair nasal strip study that adjustments to Screamer's program were necessary in order to win races. Adjustments in this case necessitated development of more muscular strength and less VO2max. I have always believed, and may be wrong, that trotting/pacing a mile is 90% aerobic, but thoroughbreds racing a mile is 60% aerobic. Hence the thoroughbred requirement for anaerobic fitness and/or muscular strength. | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3075 Registered: 04-2006 |
Great information . Here a question from a human coach. First : we know today , that in humans there is no such thing like oxygen deficit. This is now so much recognized, that the term oxygen deficit is replaced. We in FaCT never used O2 defcit in the first place, as we see in NIRS that in fact it is the opposite. We overload immediately after the workout with O2 so in humans it is the opposite from a defcit it is an overload. We name it FOOD. for forced onset of oxygen delivery. Some name it EPOC or excessive period of Oxygen Consumption. What we see is that there is a ATP ( energy deficit , which now stimulates a s nice and needed increase in O2 delivery. Sop question to the horse people , How do you look in horses the info that you know you have a oxygen deficit. Second point is lactic workout or workout. What exactly do you stimulate by training lactic ? What do you plan : moving lactate out of the muscle cells or into the muscle cells Phase 1: Oxygen Debt Workout Start pace of 213-223 heart rate with recovery of 175 within Ľ mile or terminate. Four intervals, 1 mile, 1-1/2 miles, 2 miles, then 1-1/2 miles at 17 seconds per furlong. Phase 2: Lactic Workout 3 x 3/8 mile works at 13 seconds per furlong, recovery of 155 3 x Ľ mile works at 13 seconds per furlong, recovery of 155 | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2008 |
Thoroughbred horses have a high aerobic capacity, approximately twice that of elite human athletes. Whereas the aerobic capacity of horses can be accurately measured, there have been no measurements of anaerobic capacity. The aim of this study was to determine whether maximal accumulated O2 deficit (MAOD) could be measured in horses and used as an estimate of anaerobic capacity, as in human athletes. Six fit Thoroughbred horses were used with the exercise protocol utilizing a treadmill set at a 10% incline. O2 uptake VO2 was measured via an open-flow system for seven submaximal speeds (3-9 m/s), and maximal VO2 (135 +/- 3 ml.kg-1.min-1) was determined. The horses performed three tests at 105 and 125% and six tests at 115% of maximal VO2. The MAOD test was performed with the treadmill accelerated rapidly from 1.5 m/s (mean acceleration time 8 s) to the calculated speed (11-14 m/s). VO2 was measured every 10 or 15 s, and the test ended when the horse no longer kept pace with the treadmill. The mean run times were 165, 98, and 57 s for intensities of 105, 115, and 125% maximal VO2. The mean MAOD values were 31 +/- 2, 30 +/- 1, and 32 +/- 2 (SE) ml O2 eq/kg for the three intensities (P > 0.05). The proportion of energy derived from aerobic and anaerobic sources was calculated from the difference between calculated O2 demand and the VO2 curve. There was no correlation between MAOD and maximal VO2. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2008 |
The above info is 15+ years old, but seems to be the most oft cited work involving thoroughbreds. Here is another citing that the diuretic lasix has an effect on such: Hinchcliff, K. W., K. H. McKeever, W. W. Muir, and R. A. Sams. Furosemide reduces accumulated oxygen deficit in horses during brief intense exertion. J. Appl. Physiol. 81(4): 1550–1554, 1996.—We theorized that furosemide-induced weight reduction would reduce the contribution of anaerobic metabolism to energy expenditure of horses during intense exertion. The effects of furosemide on accumulated O2 deficit and plasma lactate concentration of horses during high-intensity exercise were examined in a three-way balance randomized crossover study. Nine horses completed each of three trials: 1) a control (C) trial, 2) a furosemide-unloaded (FU) trial in which the horse received furosemide 4 h before running, and 3) a furosemide weight-loaded (FL) trial during which the horse received furosemide and carried weight equal to the weight lost after furosemide administration. Horses ran for 2 min at ∼120% maximal O2 consumption. Furosemide (FU) increased O2 consumption (ml ⋅ 2 min−1 ⋅ kg−1) compared with C (268 ± 9 and 257 ± 9,P < 0.05), whereas FL was not different from C (252 ± 8). Accumulated O2 deficit (ml O2 equivalents/kg) was significantly (P < 0.05) lower during FU (81.2 ± 12.5), but not during FL (96.9 ± 12.4), than during C (91.4 ± 11.5). Rate of increase in blood lactate concentration (mmol ⋅ 2 min−1 ⋅ kg−1) after FU (0.058 ± 0.001), but not after FL (0.061 ± 0.001), was significantly (P < 0.05) lower than after C (0.061 ± 0.001). Furosemide decreased the accumulated O2 deficit and rate of increase in blood lactate concentration of horses during brief high-intensity exertion. The reduction in accumulated O2 deficit in FU-treated horses was attributable to an increase in the mass-specific rate of O2 consumption during the high-intensity exercise test. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 471 Registered: 04-2006 |
As we do in our Level I course, we should maybe take a step back and deal with definitions, and the problem with using historic terms in modern studies. As Juerg alludes to, there is an issue with the term oxygen deficit. Which implies there is a lack of oxygen at the tissue level. In fact, numerous studies have shown there is never an anaerobic situation in the muscle cells. We therefore run into difficulty with using terms like anaerobic and oxygen deficit. The accumulation of lactate measured in the blood is NOT a result of lack of oxygen, but rather the byproduct of glucose metabolism and the lack of available pathways to move pyruvate through the Krebs cycle, either as a result of inadequate structures, enzymes, or a demand that exceeds the energy provided by oxygen dependent metabolism. | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3076 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here some backup of the above statement so that it is more clear here. The pictures shows a very specific type of an "interval " workout. Most interesting is to look at the red and the green traces. The green trace is the information on blood volume trends during a workout and the red is the oxyHb trend during the workout. The top green trace is TSI % as an absolute value ( tissue saturation of Oxygen.. You can easy see, where we loaded ( interval ) and where we unloaded and how the oxyHb as well as the TSI % trend show the incredible fast " oxygenation immediately after the load as a sign of the opposite thna a O2 deficit. The reason is , that as soon you stop or reduce performance the same amount of O2 is still moving in. Respiration rate ( VE .TV and RF )are still very high and cardiac output ( SV , HR and EF % are still very high as well. So the delivery system actually delivers much more O2 than now needed for performance but it can be used now the refuel the energy deficit like ATP CP and so on. If you look at VO2 test information you will see the same, that the VO2 is actually higher at the same performance than on the way up in a test and or during an interval.  | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3077 Registered: 04-2006 |
Great studies with one nice question: The classical idea on VO2 max would argue, that we can run 115 % or 120 % or what ever % above VO2 max because we run into an O2 deficit. That was the "theories " before we where not able to assess actually the trend in the actual working muscles. The reason why we not increase VO2 anymore is, because we have somewhere in the system a limitation of either delivering or using O2. ( Cardiac , respiratory and or muscle level.) So at the moment the delivery of O2 is limited or reaches a certain top we still move O2 together with O2 independent supplier. So that's the moment we can see tissue saturation % dropping. Depending on training or ability in humans we have very different tissue saturation trends. Some people can very nicely "de-saturate" down to 30 % and some barely can't de-saturate. So studies based on VO2 max and % of this are in today's human testing in heavy discussion , as the same % above VO2 max in one person can have a very different intensity than the same % in another person. Conclusions build on this type of classical " calibration " of performance have to be looked upon this days now very carefully. What we can look this days is with NIRS , is the ability of a human to use " stored " O2 from Hb or myoglobin and perhaps even from dissolve O2 not bound on Hb in the body. The notion of O2 defcit in horses may be very different than the one in humans. Just some interesting thoughts from the other side of the fence. If we see, that horse trainers use "rules" like 2 and 4 mmol as well as interval ideas like dropping the HR below 120 , which are taken from classical human training ideas, than we have to wonder how much this really applies to horses. | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 95 Registered: 07-2008 |
Juerg, excellent insight, as always. When I was involved with the training program I outlined above, it was taken directly from the human side and applied to horses. Having experienced that has been golden for me because this is an exciting time right now with so many questions still unanswered. I believe that with the guidance of good human coaches (Fact-Canada) and better testing equipment and procedures, we can also refine better training protocols for our equine athletes and break those long standing records, this has been my goal. I am currently training a 5 year old stallion who has not started yet, I broke him when he was a 4 year old. He has a 5 mile base and can gallop a 2 minute mile, 15 second furlongs, for 2 miles and do that every third day. He is sub 12 seconds per furlong fast all ready and will be doing his intervals soon. All of his works has been on the racetrack as I don’t have my treadmill in operation yet. I warm him up and cool him down on the racetrack, and through good nutrition, he recovers very rapidly from these works, regaining his pre-work weight within one day. I have always believed that you can get a horse to do most anything and do it willingly if you think outside the box. | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 3079 Registered: 04-2006 |
Leonie , thanks for this great inside view. As usual, when you combine the ideas you can see how some "old " traditional " ideas suddenly can be given up and replaced by some interesting combination from different fields. One point Leonie makes may be really the key point in the interval and or any workout. Nutritional recovery. As I mentioned above: I do not believe that there is such a thing like O2 deficit. See the NIRS case studie. In fact the body really supplies an "overdose" of O2 after an interval load or a hard or any workout. The reason may be as usual ( survival ) As we deplete a lot of O2 independent energy storage during an interval and even during a long workout the key to survive is to reload as soon as possible and as fast as possible the : 1. ATP storage 2. CP storage 3. Glucose storage 4. Fix protein damage ( actin myosin ) and at the end store long term energy ( Fat ) To actually end up in the storage ability we need O2, but as Leonie points out ,as well good nutrition. So the key is not the workout per see , but the appropriate recovery. The key is to find that what we call " hidden workout" or in other words, how long is the catabolic process triggered in the workout still going after the actual workout, when the athlete is already in the shower. So the task is to shorten the hidden workout as good as possible so the actual " anabolic " stage ( recovery can kick in to restore and rebuild the body to be ready for the next workout. Here in a very simple way this idea.  Now Mary Ann Kelly from California ( nutritional Spec. ) moved her idea together with our idea and the nutritional intervention would look like that  So you see the FOOD idea ( forced onset of Oxygen Delivery ) plus LEONIES FOOD ( nutrition ) with Mary Ann s CNF ( chrono nutritional flow | |||
| Adam Intermediate Member Username: Adam Post Number: 16 Registered: 01-2011 |
For LSD because the trainers aren't all that interested in doing the work themselves, they are going to send me out on the 4wheeler to essentially moto-pace (for the cyclists here) the horse around. So 2-3 days a week i'm going to take the experimental horse out and gradually build at a below LBP HR up from 3-4km up to hopefully 10-15km per day LSD. I also looked at energy systems and thought that TB horses can train all three energy systems. CP system is essentially your start. You can do 1-2F standing all out sprints with a good 5-10min rest between where you walk for full recovery. From what I have read and from talking to BIll and the trainers i'm working with a 4F and 5F flying sprint at 12s per F is the standard and often only done once a week. This is great for working the oxygen independent state, but when races are 10F whats the point? Training the oxygen dependent fibres is where they are really lacking and why I believe the TB's aren't getting faster. There are many ways this can be done. But having a solid base, and then running a horse at LBP or slightly above, but no where near max HR for 10-20F will help to build the oxygen dependent system. It's not too hard that the workout can be finished a couple of times with adequate rest, but it's hard enough that the system is forced to use large amounts of lactate. Thoughts? Juerg tell me i'm on track, or out to lunch. Horse friends, due tell me if i'm nuts or not. On several emails back and forth with the trainers i have been asked "are you trying to kill the horse?". However the more I explain physiology to them, which i am not sure they really had an understanding of before the more they like my ideas. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 479 Registered: 04-2006 |
Adam, you are doing great work at breaking down old myths. I had the same questions from trainers when discussing potentially training on hills. Everyone said it would "kill" the horse. That is, until the most experienced and successful trainer in the room admitted his success was in part due to a 3 year commitment of long miles of training incorporating resistance carts and hill work. I think your idea of building oxygen dependent system is key. How to best do that might be up for debate. Clearly the Long Controlled Intensity work is essential for structural development. We should al stop calling to LSD, as it really is NOT slow in well-trained athletes. Just slower than what most people think is controllable, but often much faster than people realize who don;t train with our athletes. The higher speed work will need to be watched very carefully, with the goal of focusing on form and function, in addition to cadence and stride length. We hope to have some more details when Jennisse visits Joe this week in Maine with her Polar footpod. The more we have REAL data form the LBP test, the more we can suggest specific interventions to overcome the limitation. | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 221 Registered: 07-2008 |
Three thoughts: The term Long Controlled Intensity is better than Long Slow Distance for sure. Great Andrew! Back in the 50's the then renowned t-bred trainer Preston Burch recognized starting (breaking) a young horse pulling a cart viable...control, no weight on the back and can help square up the movement. Now you can add resistance. Please read: http://www.rcswins.com/thoroughbred_resi stance_carts/Resistance%20training.pdf Thanks to Giles Anderson of Trainer Magazine for permission to share the article. Jennisse is visiting my farm which is in Pennsylvania not Maine. | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 98 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, What is the optimum speed that one should train Long Controlled Intensity work in Thoroughbreds? | |||
| Adam Intermediate Member Username: Adam Post Number: 17 Registered: 01-2011 |
Leonie, There isn't one. This is what Andrew meant when he said Long slow distance isn't relevant because it's based on physiological markers and not absolute output like speed. If you have a LBP test the simple way is to do LBP minus 20 beats for humans. Say LBP is at 180bpm in a horse. Then you work them at a controlled Heart rate at 160bpm. Now i'm told horse heart rates are sporadic, so maybe work within a range of +/- 10bpm. What you will get is that as the horse increases fitness they will increase speed at the same heart rate. This is what Andrew meant when he said in a trained athlete long slow distance isn't slow, becuase they keep getting faster with that same slow controlled heart rate. What you need to watch is the longer you hold the horse the more you need to be conscious of the cadence and stride of the horse to make sure they aren't breaking form. I hope this helps. | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 99 Registered: 07-2008 |
Adam, What if you don't have a lactate balance point in the horse yet? My horse currently is galloping 6 miles at a 3:30 to 3:00 minute mile rate and the HR showed him to be galloping at about 120 Bpm, which I don't believe. I am going to put my electrodes on him differently this next gallop, perhaps I will get believable readings then. Don't know how the protocol to get a LBP on the track yet, I have a Lactate Pro, however. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 481 Registered: 04-2006 |
Adam, great response, and very well described. Leonie, there are a couple of people around that could help you with LBP testing if you are interested. Jennisse is in New Jersey, Adam in Ontario, Joe in Pennsylvania, and a couple of others who were at the REPS 1 course in Mohawk 2 years ago. I am sure Jennisse would be willing to meet with you. The process is described on this forum in numerous places, but it is much easier having been through it a few times in the practical component of the course. I will be very interested to see what the HR of the thoroughbred is at 3:00 minute mile pace = 20mph, which is a fairly good clip for the cart horses, and would yield generally a much higher HR than 120 as you have suggested. Let us know what you find. | |||
| Echelon Senior Member Username: Echelon Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2009 |
Leonie, I am absolutely willing to meet with you. I would love to, in fact. To everyone: We need a way to test - and it seems to be the consensus that a catheter to the jug is the most reliable way to get blood from an exercising horse. We need a track or a treadmill. At the track, we could use a bioharness and/or a GPS so speed and heart rate can be measured reliably from a distance - from the rider of the horse or in the cart to the tester/trainer/coach on the side. We need repeatability in the testing and the training. The more things we can do and record that we are doing them the same way every time, the better we will be. It might take us a bit to do so and may need some adjusting but the more consistent we are and the more we record, the better. That was a really drawn out way of saying, the testing we are doing is very scientific and should be treated as a scientific experiment. Reliability - we need reliability. Heart rate monitors, GPS, Dartfish Motion Capture photography and software to watch the horse from the side to determine stride length if the Polar Stride pod doesn't give us what we want - or we can use it along with the Polar Stride foot/hoof pod. I have used Dartfish to record my cyclists, do bicycle fitting overlap pictures and my runners at the track to prove to them that they are bouncing and heel striking when they bet me they weren't. We can absolutely use it on a horse to determine all sorts of interesting things about gait, cadence and stride length. In short, let's use all of the technology we have available to us and use it in any way that we need, whether it was intended for that purpose or not. And then we need to train according the physiological facts - I say facts but there seems to be a lot of discussion about what works and how differently it works from horses to humans. There is a lot of discussion just between horses, standardbred to thoroughbred, let alone between two different species. Regardless, if we apply a stress or a training "plan" and see what happens by recording/documenting the workouts, training sessions and retesting, we should be able to prove or disprove the theories. I really don't think they are theories but until they are really proven, they are, by definition, I suppose. Right now what is missing is the data. So let's go get the data. I really don't see that there is anything to lose - perhaps some time - certainly not any killed horses - that is ridiculous and a lot to gain. I will be at Joe's this week - either Thursday or Friday - and as long as Allentown will allow us to get blood, I anticipate it will be the first test on our way to proving the ideas are sound. I actually have no doubt that they are sound and I am chomping at the bit to prove it. Yes, that saying was intentional. All the best, Jennisse | |||
| Adam Intermediate Member Username: Adam Post Number: 18 Registered: 01-2011 |
Leonie, Aerin and I are coming down in May for the derby. We are going to meet up with Bill Pressey and from what Bill tells me, you are in Lexington as well. We should have a meeting of the minds on the Friday during the day. Im going to bring my HRM, and lactate pro so we can run a few tests, and swap ideas. If you have horses we can even try a few of the warm up ideas that I have come up with to kick in the oxygen dependent system before a hard effort. I am going out to try a second time with the lancet this Saturday. I got a different Lancet device, as well as I can try the lancets by them selves to get a bit deeper hole. Here's hoping. Although catheter (i'm only imagining what they do with humans here) is reliable, how safe is that for a horse to be exercising with tube in them? Whats the risk of throwing a clot with repeated catheterization? Andrew your thoughts? Your the MD here. I'll let you know Saturday how my second attempt at the lancet goes. I'm hopeful. Leonie let me know about the Friday before the Derby. I look forward to going through an LBP test with you. From what I gather we should be able to get a relatively accurate LBP with 4 laps of a track. Give or take. Essentially its one lap at speed to build lactate in the system (stop after one lap and check). Your next laps will be at consistent heart rate each lap. Each lap should be faster than the previous. After each lap you have to stop and take a lactate. You want consistent heart rate on each lap. Speed doesn't matter so much. This may be difficult. You want to find the heart rate at which the horse stops clearing the lactate that was produced from the first hard effort lap, and starts accumulating it again. LBP is essentially the max HR a horse can go and clear lactate thats produced from oxygen independent metabolism. Sorry that was a bit of a wordy explanation. If you read the cycling section it may explain it better. Adam | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 67 Registered: 09-2008 |
As an aside, I came across this technique in some older files I have: "I've been playing with a glucometer on a very skin-sensitive pony, and I've devised a method that uses the standard human lancet. I have a lancet with an adjustable depth, and now use it on one of the deeper/longer settings. Wipe the nostril clean, then with one hand pinch the outer edge of the nostril rim, near the bottom, fairly firmly. With the other hand, press the lancet device (also firmly) down onto the area of stretched skin between your fingers and trigger the device. With a little practice you can easily get a droplet big enough for the new glucometers that use a fairly small blood sample. The pinch makes the lancet penetrate better, and also reduces the horse's response (which is surprisingly minimal). Different horses have different nostril skin, so it takes a little bit of practice, but is easy and quick."} Not sure if there's a difference between venous and capillary blood for lactate, but there you go. Maybe it helps someone. | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 222 Registered: 07-2008 |
Gallop If your lancet method works we all have a place in heaven. Joe | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 100 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, Ok, here is another TB HR exercise for Feb 18, 2011 at the Kentucky Training Center, Lexington, KY. Track condition good, depth of track about 6” deep of a newly added sandy loam. Here is how this exercise went this morning. After a jog warm up we began galloping strong from a 3:26 min/mi to 2:46 min/mi rate, HR was reading from 147 to 186, this went on for 3:95 minutes. I pulled him into a jog to get him to slow down a bit then eased him into another gallop. This time I was able to keep him between a 3:16 min/mi to a 3:01 min/mi with HR from 160 down to 118, this went on for 4:15 minutes. Then he settled into a relaxed gallop which went like this: 3:01 min/mi to 3:03 min/mi with HR from 118 to 112, this was for 5:90 minutes. After placing my HR electrodes differently on the horse and keeping the transmitter up at the withers, per Bill Pressey’s suggestion the other day, I seem have good, believable readings this morning. I guess what I am trying to illustrate here is the way that Thoroughbreds train on the race track. I galloped him a total of 5 miles, he pulled my arms out the first part (as shown by the higher HR and speed) before he relaxed. So what will you read into this exercise? Adam, Thanks for the information and explanation of the testing proceedure. Makes sense to me and can do. I would love to meet with you on Friday before Derby day. We may be able to take my horse to the track that day to do the LBP test when you are there. | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 101 Registered: 07-2008 |
Oh yea, just incase you want to see the Polar chart on my horse, here it is:
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| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 102 Registered: 07-2008 |
Sorry guys, that did not work | |||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 103 Registered: 07-2008 |
OK, I got it this time.
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| Adam Intermediate Member Username: Adam Post Number: 19 Registered: 01-2011 |
I'll try to the nostril method tomorrow. I'll keep you posted. A |
Final Velocity Exercise Feb 18, 2011