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     Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 128 Registered: 07-2008 |
Happy Holidays to All On Monday it will be 31 days since we first met at Mohawk for REPS 1. I will have lasting memories of our three days together. So here’s one thing we have going as a result. Shortly I will be shipping Allentown and Our Black Jelly Bean to Scott and Allison Mackenzie’s standardbred training center in Plymouth Maine for at least 3 months of intensive conditioning for the 2010 season. Their work will be guided by Andrew and regular reports will be posted in “The Maine Project” thread. The tools will consist of the Polar CS600, LactatePro, a Custom II Resistance Cart and a treadmill. Scott, Allison, Gaylord, me and Andy will comprise the home team. Many of you know of Allentown from the Forum and it will be especially interesting to see how we will get this 8 year old cheap cripple winning more money. Jelly Bean is a 3 year old trotter who is staked in Florida and was purchased for $3500. Behind the scenes 7 more horses will be following the REPS path so there will be a lot going on. Below is Allentown’s step test from today (Polar Curve and FaCT Graph). On Wednesday or Thursday we want to do a full LBP workout. We live in interesting times as it relates to horse power. F1, Indy Cars and NASCAR equate horse power in the hundreds. We do it one at a time. We can probably learn from each other.   | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 339 Registered: 04-2006 |
Joe, please clarify the units of measurement for speed on the Polar curve... If the blue line represents PACE measured in min/mile, then a climbing blue line would actually mean the horse was slowing down (more minutes to cover the same mile). I would like to suggest we use miles per hour (mph) as the standard unit of speed measurement for the Maine project. This will help the horse trainers who are often using track distances during their own step tests, and will help make for more easy conversions to race situations. Please note, the FaCT software will report km/h on the y-axis, regardless of the units that are recorded into the program. The software has an excellent feature to allow conversion from mph entered data to km/h for those of us working in metric. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 130 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, Yes it is Pace measured in minutes(and seconds)/mile. But the higher the blue line goes it is less min/per mile hence faster. For us US people at least, mph is preferred. Perhaps one day we'll catch up with the rest of the world and dump the imperial and go to metric. Now there's a project our new President Obama could handle...I think I'll give him a call. For everyone's convenience here'a a Time Speed Conversion Chart we whipped up for us horse trainers. I should probably go lower minutes and seconds for the t-bred people.
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| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 131 Registered: 07-2008 |
Due to severe weather up in Maine this weekend we did not ship Allentown and Jelly Bean this weekend...looking at next to leave on Friday. Due to unexpected funeral services in the family we did not get Al's LBP performed...shooting for Tuesday. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 135 Registered: 07-2008 |
Short and Sweet. We have a new LBP on Allentown which is 175. Below is his FaCT. Andrew cropped the LLL and the ULL. Any body know why? Does anyone wish to explain the relationship between the blue and the green lines? Then Andrew said: "For the next test, the only changes I would make are: 1) During recovery portion, do Not drop as far to HR=140, drop only to 155, then go to 165, 175, 185. This will help us ensure he has not cleared too much, and possibly give us a better picture of LBP. With the current test, it is possible he cleared enough to make this look like a standard threshold test. I can talk with Scott and Allyson about how to confirm your LBP of 175. This owuld mean some steady state work just below, wth lactate samples every 5 minutes to see trends. They should remain stable, and he shold be able to sustain pace at that intensity, without dropping off. This would be between 17-18mph currently, but should change over time."  Cleared too much? Would some one please explain "cleared" again? What is a Standard Threshold Test? | |||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2331 Registered: 04-2006 |
You see the lactate ( red ) line coming in from the left side. It may be you filled out the numbers on the wrong place as we miss the lactate at the end of the performance line by the HR around 210 and 25.ed. So that line may come down check the list on the program for this level. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 136 Registered: 07-2008 |
Need help with the above please. We're in Plymouth Maine. Horses and humans shipped fine. Saturday Al and JB are in the paddock and start work on Monday. Otherwise we want to do an LBP on another horse. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 143 Registered: 07-2008 |
Too often questions are asked which go unanswered. Presently, please explain "cleared" and the Standard Threshold Test. Here's where we're at with Scott, Allison, Gaylord, Allentown, Our Black Jelly Bean, Andrew and me...The Maine Project. The treadmill is still not quite set. A new belt is expected to be in by Saturday and hence the mill could be operational on Monday. S&A record every horse’s workout on Polar and they are stored in the horse’s calendars. Through www.gotomypc.com we can review and screen capture both Polar Curves and FaCT Charts which are stored in smac’s computer. Scott and I talk frequently and are sorting through many small set-up issues and discussing their special conditions. Today Plymouth Maine got close to 12 inches of snow. As we are getting the treadmill going our horses are getting quality work with the help of Mother Nature’s natural resistance…snow and lots of it. At MacKenzie Training Center Al and JB work is split time with steady state on the ˝ mile track and intervals up a nice 200 yard slope totaling three days a week. I’m very pleased how our horses are responding. With our Polar CS600 system I can see how Scott’s feel with driving horses is making a difference and more skilled than mine. One LBP test was performed but not successfully as we needed to work the horse faster or longer to get the first blood lactate draw. Once the treadmill is working LBP tests will be a snap. When the snow is gone MacK Center also has a Custom Athletic II Resistance Cart which adds to their resistance training paradigm. Creating training programs based on heart rate, speed and lactate information is another paradigm and adding resistance is still another. This is a wonderful course of study. Keep a light in the window! j | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 358 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Clearing" used in the context above was simply a reference to the drop in lactate during the recovery portion of the FaCT LBP test. As in, "...the lactate was seen to clear at a HR of 155, 165, and 175, but began to accumulate again at HR of 185." I will not go into a full description of a "Standard Threshold Test". This has been described in the REPS lectures and also reviewed on this forum in older threads. We feel it is an out of date test, that relies either on mathematics or a particular absolute number to determine "thresholds" which we have discussed as being a very inaccurate way of describing the complex physiology of exercise. The Maine project seems to be going well, and I look forward to seeing Scotts next work on LBP testing with the feedback that was sent in response to his first test at home. | |||||
| Lordpat New member Username: Lordpat Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2009 |
Twenty five years ago I required all my horses to score down after the post parade at a 15 second 1/8 mile. Every horse that did this performed 85 to 90 percent better. Some, maybe the same, but non worse.Perhaps some horses didnt dump their spleens so sometimes I asked my drivers to score down twice to make sure the spleen dumped. I had more reasons than just spleen dumping. I wanted glycogen transfer to the mitochrondia along with oxygenated blood cells. I wanted the heart rate as close to maximum as possible so that when the horse went behind the gate it didnt have to raise its heart rate from 120 to 230, I wanted the heart rate at 180 or so, making it easier to reach the maximum racing heart rate intead of going into oxygen debt before the quarter mile mark. Also, I wanted the horse to know he was going racing!!. Some horses need to be excited and ready to race. One more thing, a horse is a glucose factory. I fed my horses 2 pounds of carbohydrate 2 hours before the race. In 45 minutes the carbs (preferably carrots) were liquid glucose due to the million year development of equine stomach acid that dissolves fibrous material quickly. The glucose is transferred to the liver as glycogen, the glucose(sugar) excites the insulin in the pancreas and sends the glycogen to the mitrochrondia. So, I want a spleen dump, fresh blood, BUT I want an elevated heart rate to pump the oxygen and glycogen to the cells as fast as possible, AND, I dont want my horse to have a blood sugar reading under 100 and be washed out. I want a blood sugar reading of 120 to 160 to be sure that the liver sends maximum glycogen. OK people, have at this message. I have fought this battle for 25 years with driver/trainers who were sure the horse couldnt finish the mile if scored down hard. All my horses finished stronger with the hard, but short, 1/8 mile score. Was it the excitement, the glycogen, the oxygen, the elevated heart rate, or??? I look forward to your comments. Gaylord from the Maine group. | |||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2399 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo Lordpat, Thanks for your great info here and you inspired me to actually look even closer, what " warm up" really triggers in the human body. In the past many different theories and ideas, that it may be the increase in temp. which avoids injuries, but there are some very intriguing studies done in Germany , Japan and Australia , who used a "cooliong down" idea before explosive discipline like cycling sprints, javelin and so on and showed a clear improvement in performance. What we can't find yet is the actual result of warming up in connection with energy supply ( supercompensation ) So I did yesterday a "race" simulation over 10 km with a specific "warm up" If you visit the human thread ( Fact-test) you will see this evening a printout for the full warm up and run as it unfolded including the limitation by about half way in with a drop in ATP supply and demand balance and why the speed had to be reduced to be able to kick in an endsprint. Thanks for the involvement in this discussions. | |||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2403 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo Lordpat , here "your" warm up in a human body Datas live collection during the warm up and changes were done depending on the bodies reaction based on O2 Hb levels.  | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 150 Registered: 07-2008 |
We are still trying to get the "puzzle pieces" to fit. Al and Jelly Bean have been getting quality oxygen independent work in one of the fields at Scott and Allison's training center "MacK Center" in Plymouth Maine. This particular field is about 200 yards long with maybe a 5 degree slope. The workouts, of which the following is representative, consist of 5 to 10 intervals at not fast speed, in some cases adding 50 bar of resistance on the cart. The resistance is added when the wind has blown the snow off and up to Scott when he'll apply and not. Considering the degree of the slope adding resistance is double duty since the slope already creates resistance. We're playing games, good games I hope, and getting an education. All the horses, Al, JB and 6 others seem to be thriving with this work three days a week. All are eating and drinking well, showing no signs of muscle or joint soreness at this time and seem to be loving life in general. The horses have had no long distance oxygen dependent work as the 1/2 mile track is in not good shape and we've been holding off for the treadmill. The treadmill was fully operational for the first time this morning and Scott and Gaylord tried it out with Allentown. After a few minutes of work the new belt started to come apart so they shut down...damn. Gaylord is taking it to the shop tomorrow for repairs and some minor modifications. Once the tread mill is up and running our LBP tests, basic step tests and long slow distance work (LBP-20) will be our focus. In the mean time tonight about 8PM Scott, Gaylord and I will telecon and try to come up with some sort of modified step test we can perform for the work on the sloped field. Any ideas any one? Oops, the workout file is over 400 kilobytes and hence rejected by the allowable upload size. HERB HELP! | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 50 Registered: 07-2008 |
Joe, Hope you are using the heart rate monitors to guide the horses through resistance vs. slope Leonie | |||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2429 Registered: 04-2006 |
5 - 10 intervals over a 200 yard stretch ! Leonie help , why in horses the heart rate would help in this type of workout. It for sure does nothing in human workouts at all besides looking smart as a coach. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 151 Registered: 07-2008 |
LeLe Our horses might as well stay in the barn if no heart rate monitoring. We monitor and store EVERY workout. Please share with us why this is a concern to you. JoJo | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 152 Registered: 07-2008 |
Juerg I too am anticipating reading Leonie's response to your posted question. In the mean time please consider these questions: Does looking smart relete to being smart? How? Joe | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 362 Registered: 04-2006 |
I think Juerg is referring to the fact that over the very short distances you are doing your hill repeats (200 yards), the heart rate will be too slow to respond to use as a useful biomarker during these sessions. In the future, we may be able to make use of a unit like the Portemon, that gives immediate information with regards to local oxyhemoglobin levels in the working muscles, or even Physioflow to see how the interval is challenging Stroke Volume or CCT. But HR monitoring for these intervals is simply not a useful tool. You COULD make the hill repeats a structural development session for mitochondrial development by maintain a constant HR below LBP, which would require slow steady work on the climbs, and perhaps faster "jogging" on the way back to the bottom. Even better, would be if there was a "long way back down" at less than 5% grade, to decrease risk for injury. If not, we could add resistance on the way down to force the horse to walk down slowly, PULLING the resistance cart, and thus maintaining a steady state HR. This is how you could change the current interval (functional) session into a steady state (structural development) session on the same practice field. | |||||
| Lordpat New member Username: Lordpat Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2009 |
Thanks everyone for the responses to my posting. I have learned a great deal and look forward to more input re the Maine Project. I fully agree to the comment re Allentown and his "return" trip, after the uphill intervals,that keeping the resistance applied while walking, jogging, back continues to recruit the 2a and 2b fibers, so utilize the time. Even though the intervals are short, major conditioning is taking place. The key is how we are going to work our young horses toward what Allentown and Eric are doing. The classic way is mile after mile of jogging, in essence teaching them how to go slow! Yes, we want to avoid injury but using resistance, at slow speeds, recruits the fast twitch fibers without injury. At this point our young horses are loving it. Gaining muscle weight, eating well, and can hardly wait to get back to the bottom of the hill to sprint again. No signs of lameness, high peaked heart rates and good recoveries. When they reach average heart rates and short recovery times like Eric and Allentown, they will be ready for the next step. I do have a question. Joe, Scott and I had a conference call tonight to review the workout graphs. The question arose as to when to start endurance, long slow distance works. Let us say we are going to do a half hour on the track at a 150 heart rate. Good stuff, but I say that a well conditioned horse will lose his "racing" fitness because he has adapted to that particular speed and is only using his type 1 muscle fibers. He is coasting, at a good clip, but coasting. I believe that walking, jogging, slow(under resistance) but at a 150 heart rate that he is contineing to recruit typ 2 fibers, develop mitocrondria in the type 2 fibers; while jogging easily,without resistance, at a 150 heart rate he is, in fact, deconditioning. I found this out with my treadmill horses who went back to conventional track work and in about 6 weeks began to lose racing fitness. I believe that the resitance of the power cart and/or the 7% treadmill grade at 150 heart rate creates a better conditioned horse than a 150 heart rate on a smooth track but no resistance? Yes, we have to build endurance but why not recruit the fibers that win races at the same time. Your comments will be greatly appreciated. Gaylord | |||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2430 Registered: 04-2006 |
Great points, I am not sure how it is in horses, but STF or slow twitch fibers and FTF = fast twitch fibers have very little to do with actual speed. The difference is in resisting "fatigue ' respectively providing ATP. STF fibers provide great ATP but it takes some time to get that ATP delivered. FTF fibers provide faster ATP and therefore will be used more likely in higher speed trainings as higher speed trainings need faster ATP as the ATP is faster used. In fact in humans Type 2 fibers ( FTF a ) fibers work less optimal in very high intensities , than STF fibers in combination with FTF B fibers or FTF x fibers. The most famous study , which is always used in humans, despite the study was done in animals is Dudley's research on fiber recruitment used in this Forum many times. The other way we can look STF as slow fatiguing fibers as they can provide very long ATP over O2 and FFA and have a much smaller risk running out of energy storage compared to the FTF type a fibers, where the level of storage in the liver is a major factor. Glucose depletion and refuelling , where we use lactate in humans for certain assessments ( look in the human forum if this may interest you ) | |||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2431 Registered: 04-2006 |
To try to give a short answer to Joe. Again may not be true on horses at all and Leonie may have a good explanation for the use of HR on horses in this short intervals. Look at again on our latest tests with NIRS. Intervals with a duration of 15 + sec to up perhaps 30 sec don't need any major support from the heart for O2 delivery . The intensity is so high , that the initial O2 has to come from within the muscle cell already. In fact we see an initial increase in intracellular O2 due the initiated venous occlusion followed by a drop in intracellular O2 Hb down to about 40 % of the total TSI % . We until now did not see lower values. The Artinis groups gave us info , that a total occlusion ( arterial ) may need up to 8 min + to see a TSI % drop close to zero.. We will test soon a world record holder in a very hard sport and have some unique info how it looks there , as it is until now never done. In Intervals we test for the moment ,with Ice Hockey in mind,and we see no need for cardiac involvement with this short single interval. The reason why respiration is increasing dramatically and than triggers a cardiac involvement is rather due to the bodies cry to get ride of CO2 and control H+ than to support the O2 need in the respiratory system.Actually in this short intervals the body is less concerned about the O2 situation , than the H+ and or pCO2 situation of the risk of a hypercapnia.( That's why at the end of a 400 or 800 m run the runners breath like crazy.) NIRS tests we do show , how this reaction dramatically can change the O2 Hb situation immediately and as soon the H+ situation is regulated the same intense breathing seem to have no reaction any more on the O2 Hb. This may be in fact the way to find an optimal resting period and loading period based on physiological individual reactions .Time, as well as HR are just secondary control tools so we can use that later as individual bio markers , once the athlete has his program established for a certain amount of week before he comes back for a re-adjustment on time and HR based on the new settings of his physiological systems. The cardiac involvement seem to kick in as soon ATP seem to reach a critical low level and there is now more the need to refuel ATP to survive, than actually running another interval. If you look in the Human threads you can see live prints from three different interval with three different goals. 1. Fully O2 recovery 2. Overshoot of O2 recovery and incomplete O2 recovery . The key now is to see, what type of interval will trigger what reaction. The goal : can we trigger MCT 4 development for certain sports like 800 m runners and 400 m runners. Can we develop MCT1 and MCT 4 development for sports like Ice Hockey. and what sport may benefit of having rather good MCT1 development alone. Interesting tasks and lot's of fun and changes a head of us. Summary : In humans the HR trends alone will give no clear and some times even a wrong picture in this short term intervals on the recovery state or load state . Again it may be very different in horses. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 51 Registered: 07-2008 |
Awsome discussion, wow! just because I mentioned measuring the HR while doing an 5% uphill with either using or not using resistance. When you are doing an uphill, your HR will be higher than on the flat,obviously, when you add resistance, you will again increase the HR. I only mentioned using the HR monitors if you are training at a prescribed HR for the 200 yard works and being aware that it will change when adding resistance. I can't wait to utilize the PortaMon and Physioflow in my training programs. These two analysers will give you an accurate reading of the HR and O2 dynamics during exercise. | |||||
| Smac New member Username: Smac Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2009 |
Alot to swallow here. The uphill slope is 350 yards, I warm the horses up and then set the resistance and do the hill work, faster up slower down working their way up to 8 of these intervals which will be the max for now. In a short period of time heart rates have greatly improved in all. Most of these horses are 2 and 3 year olds with a couple of aged horses. What I have found is once they are at 8 int.their heart rates are very good and I believe their LBP's will be very high. Next week hopefully the weather will warm a bit so I can get people to draw blood to do the LBP tests. Then the LBP -20 will become very helpfull. I along with Gaylord believe that these horses who are directly out of the field having had 6 months off will have an LBP so low that it would be difficult to get the horses fit in the time frame we have before the stake season. Jogging at 8 to 10 mph these young horses had heart rates of 170 and in less than a month they have dropped drastically. Scott | |||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2433 Registered: 04-2006 |
Interesting info. Here some thoughts from the human side. . LBP does not change that easy upwards. It can very easy drop due to dramatically overload of the weakest link, like after a downhill race, if the muscle produced teh setting of the LBP. Or after an Iron man, if the cardiac system was the setting of the LBP. Just because the HR drops on a certain interval has very little future info on the change in LBP HR. A drop in HR due to interval can have many reasons in humans. - Increased plasma volume , so easier work for the heart. - decrease of LVET so drop of HR and or higher HR possible in an all out sprint. - Increase of EF % as a functional reaction so bigger functional SV as a fast adaptation but a sudden plateau as the EF % can go only that high. - Increase in the recovery of muscle tension and therefore a high faster SVR return to release work on the heart . and many more option. That is the weak part of HR readings. HR readings really only tell you the heart beats per minute. But there are many reasons why the heart beat can change. In humans , as long we don't know what caused the change in heart beats we have no idea what we stimulate with the exercises , who create this HR reaction and it is pure guess work and based on experience by the coach and even than we can be in humans very wrong. Summary : Don't be surprised if the LBP does not change at all. If the cardiac system was not the limitation but the respiratory system it may not change at all. | |||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2435 Registered: 04-2006 |
" When you are doing an uphill, your HR will be higher than on the flat,obviously, when you add resistance, you will again increase the HR." Seems logic , but triggers some ideas. This is "obviously," true, if you maintain the same speed. It is less clear if you go and push harder in each of the three possibilities. In fact classical 800/ 1500 m runners get the HR higher as they run flat, than when they run uphill or uphill with resistance. Mountain runners get their HR higher if they run uphill and or uphill with resistance but less high if the go flat ( looking at reaching high to maximal HR. So the comparison of HR in flat workouts in humans and in hilly workouts is not a good way to decide, which workout is " harder" or more intense. The reason is the change in muscle recruitment ( muscle slings) in flat running compared to uphill running. One of the classical mistakes in human testing we make is to test on a treadmill and change speed and incline in the same time. As soon we change incline we change muscle recruitment ( sling) and we change in fact the "sport" discipline and will have different variables to find out , who may be the limiter. In an 800 m runner flat all out the test may show the cardiac system as the limiter and producer of LBP information. Now as he runs uphill his leg muscles may be the limiter and producing LBP trend. So two different answers.. and therefor nice different options to stress one or the other weak link by changing ideas of running sections. It may be different with horses. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 52 Registered: 07-2008 |
Never change both the slope and the speed at the same time. I believe that the human analogy is the same for horses, even though horses are quadrapeds. When you increase incline the HR goes up linearly with the increase of incline. Hey Scott, When you say that the HR "improved" does you mean is lower for the same speed and slope that they were doing earlier? I have found that some of that early lowering of HR in the horse is the horse becoming used to what is asked of them rather than about their fitness level. | |||||
| Smac New member Username: Smac Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2009 |
Leonie, The heart rate has improved during the warm up on the track, so being on the track should be what they are used to but I do think comfort levels of work outs affect the horses heart rates alot. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 155 Registered: 07-2008 |
THOUGHTS ON VARIOUS POSTS. This is a long one and has taken significant time to write it. I’m having a problem with doing what and how I normally do. The knee rehab is taking more than expected, much pain, little sleep and negative effects from pain medications…very low energy. ANDREW 2/3 @ 8PM. 1. Speaking of PortaMon, I think I know where and how to attach it to the horse’s body when we are ready…Upper Front Leg (actually the forearm) and use readily available suspenders. 2. “But HR monitoring for these intervals is simply not a useful tool.” Not totally correct I think, essentially Per Henriksen has been training exactly this way for years (his up and down grades may be longer however) but he uses both heart monitors and resistance carts. He’s one of North America’s top Standardbred trainers. Did you connect with him by-the-way? 3. Your idea on using a resistance cart with resistance on the down hill is brilliant. Scott is now doing that and see the visuals and discussions below. LORDPAT 2/3 @ 9:09PM I understand what you are saying about “de-conditioning” at 150 beats per minute and long slow distance work but I don’t think so. Certainly Scott’s approach now with Andrew’s suggestion of resistance on the down-hill grades adds some work value. FaCT’s whole idea with building M&C (mitochondria & capillaries) while tying in thoughts of the CG (Central Governor Model) makes a whole lot of sense. JUERG 2/3 9:52PM I read what you are saying here and somewhat understand your description of muscle fiber types and systems. For clarity and most complete understanding following is an excerpt from one of the Essays in www.rcswins.com Not A Mystery-Resistance Conditioning. Leonie, Kevin Nally and I spent hours writing the below statement and I would appreciate your comments on this for clarity and comparison to your post. “One of the keys to training for high speed stamina is to better understand muscles and how they work. Type I muscle fibers are also called slow twitch fibers (aerobic) or red muscle fibers. They are red because their capillary system is comparatively large accommodating all the blood flow it can get. These muscles are aerobic and oxygen serves as a primary fuel source. They are in operation all the time and mostly help with endurance. These fibers are rugged and not so easily injured. They can handle extreme amounts of work and do not fatigue easily. They are oxygen dependent since they require blood oxygen as fuel and used In human athletic activities like middle distance running, soccer, cycling and cross country. Type IIA fibers are fast twitch (FT) white muscle fibers (anaerobic). These fibers have much less blood flow in them and have a more limited tolerance to fatigue. They can handle only short demands of all-out-work. They require glycogen, which is derived from carbohydrates, as fuel. They are involved in athletic activities like basketball, baseball, soccer and football. Type IIB fibers are also fast twitch (FT-B) white muscle fibers but these fibers have a very low tolerance to fatigue and need a long period of recovery after use. They are extremely powerful and explosive fibers. Human sport comparisons like power lifting, the pitch of a baseball, javelin throwing, shot putting or the beginning of a sprint are examples. In other words, anything that needs a short burst of explosive energy. Because of this, type IIB fiber’s fuel is ATP/CP (Adenosine Tri-Phosphate and Creatine Phosphate) Type IIC fibers (FT-C) are "freak type" fibers. They are formed when satellite cells chemically bind with the Type IIB fibers. This event is called hypertrophy. Body building is a prime example. The “Satellite” cells are cells that abound in muscle tissue but have no contractile ability until they are developed and assigned. Maybe we could call them “swing cells”. Science is still unclear about more details, but knows that their function will add structural support to the muscle”. Hey Jurerg, I’m not suggesting we create a whole new debate on Fiber Types in the Maine Thread for sure. But if you care to refute or fill in some gaps on the above rcswins.com Essay’s excerpt, would you please start another thread on “Muscle Fiber Types. Maybe if we’re not on the same page and you would like, for the benefit of our members, to discuss this further. Another thought on your 02/03 9:52pm post, you say, “Glucose depletion and re-fueling , where we use lactate in humans for certain assessments (look in the human forum if this may interest you). 1. I’ve been trying to get a discussion started on Glycogen depletion and reloading started, now you bring in the term Glucose depletion and re-loading. I’m puzzled. Glycogen is the storage form of glucose in animals and humans which is analogous to the starch in plants. Glycogen is synthesized and stored mainly in the liver and the muscles. Structurally, glycogen is very similar to amylopectin with alpha acetal linkages, however, it has even more branching and more glucose units are present than in amylopectin. Various samples of glycogen have been measured at 1,700-600,000 units of glucose. http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/5… Why complicate the issue by introducing glucose when glycogen is our focus? 2. Understanding and analyzing (certain assessments) lactate is what brought us together in June 2008 our first reason for working together. It is the essence of our being. As to going to the Human Threads of FaCT Forum, I do not have the time nor attention span so would always appreciate your guidance to specific threads in the Human topics. 3. If our members wish go to: http://rcswins.com/thoroughbred_essays/lactate_and_hr/Lactate_and_HR_by_Juerg_2008.pdf for the interesting overview you wrote for us in ’08. 4. We may also click into http://rcswins.com/thoroughbred_lactate/index.htm If you recall you helped write this page by outlining the 6 Basic Benefits of Lactate Analysis…eventually maybe we’ll get to discuss them too. JUERG 02/03 10:17PM. ”Look at again on our latest tests with NIRS.” What is NIRS? Please give me a clue where to find of which you refer. What is TSI? Who/what is Artinis groups? I found the following link of MCT1 & 4, but you know me, a lazy student with little time…shame on me. http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/92/4/1573 Not sure what is needed to add this education so maybe I’ll just flounder along and perceive that one day all this will sink in or someone else in our group will catch on and teach me. In the mean, I guess it’s still not so many answers, just more questions. LEONIE 02/04 6:36AM I too am interested to see if PortaMon and Physioflow are adaptable to horses. Of course we also have the BioHarness to work with once we get the basics down better. SMAC 02/04 9:24AM Scott, Juerg’s next post is great to help better clarify exactly what LBP is and that, as I understand, is merely when the amount of lactate being produced is in balance with the amount of lactate being burned. As he also points out there are myriad variables which may affect an LBP and also beats per minute. As he states heart rate alone, even with considering a relationship to speed i.e. step tests, does not tell us all we want to know. But for now we’re still better off that the rest of the horse trainer world who relies only on how the horse looks, feels, sounds coupled with years of experience and totally ignores even basic scientific information like bpm and lactate. We’re scratching a surface that most don’t even know exists and probably for the most part don’t care. I’m happy about that as long as we’re correct. If we can translate this “stuff”, our horses are safe, staying sound and are we winning more money then we’re the winners. If not, oh well Columbus took a chance. Here’s one of Scott’s typical uphill workout on his 350 yard field. Note that Scott has become skilled to mark both the beginning and end of the intervals by pushing the red button on the Polar CS600 computer. Considering his space limitations, weather conditions and Allentown’s nature to pull your arms off it’s a hell of a great job. KICK ASS SCOTT, you’re on a mission. This visual was too big I'll try to do it again asap. JUERG 02/04 10:59AM LVET? For you real student’s check this out: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=LVET&aq=f&aqi=g-s6g1g-s1&oq=&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8 Believe it or not, some of what you are saying here is actually beginning to make sense to me. JUERG 02/04 12:46PM Do you ever sleep? I think that if Scott, Allison, Gaylord and I understand what you are offering here we’ll come closer to best utilize the tools (hill, track, resistance cart, treadmill) we have at our disposal in Maine. Here are two workouts. 1. Allentown working on the hill where Scott wanted to keep beats per minute stable so he used some resistance going down hill.  2. With Jelly Bean he merely went slow both uphill and down hill to maintain a consistent bpm looking for steady state values. Gaylord made an interesting observation on JB’s workout but I forget what he said. Gaylord again please if you recall?  LEONIE 02/04 5:07PM AND SCOTT 6:10PM Leonie, reinforces what Juerg says above. Scott I presume by saying the heart rate is improved you mean going faster or maintaining the same speed with a lower bpm. Correct? The treadmill is still not working but we hope will be in a few days, Step tests, LBP tests, more controlled steady state work will be the result. Scott has not been able to use the 1/2 mile track with the snow and ice conditions but that will get better soon too. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 364 Registered: 04-2006 |
Just a couple of quick notes before work... Oxygen is not a fuel. In itself, it can not be burned. There requires a substrate for energy production in the body, which comes in the form of glucose, fats or protein. All of these can be burned to produce energy, either oxygen dependently or independently, depending on whether the process is given enough time to work through the Kreb's cycle (TCA cycle). Glycogen is simply the storage form of glucose, and needs to be broken down in order to be used in the muscles for glycolysis and energy production. The two terms are often used interchangeably when talking about storage and usage in the body. One last note...in both "interval workouts" noted above, you can see the fairly steady HR response, which I would argue is more of a "steady-state" stimulus, rather than what is typically described as true "interval" training. And this is exactly what we wanted to see. Just because the horse is going up and down a hill does NOT necessarily make it an interval workout, as you can see form the Polar curves. This is the same as trail running in humans. You can do a very hilly trail run at a constant cardiac intensity by walking up the hills, and running fast down, and cruising along the flats. Or, you can do exactly the same route by going fast up the hills, and slowly down. This now becomes a MUCH different challenge to the cardiac system, and resembles more of an "interval" session. Lets see if Scott and Allyson can control HR even more stable with more resistance on the downhill, or going slightly slower on the uphill portion, perhaps adding some resistance to help keep the horse under control. I had a great chat with Per Herrikson this morning, who recently won Canadian "Horseman of the Year". It is quite an honour to have him discussing ideas, and his open mind, and "out of the box" thinking is certainly one of the keys to his success with training horses. Most people would call his training methods crazy...if he was not so successful. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 156 Registered: 07-2008 |
  Here are yesterday's workouts. First is Allentown. Actually his workout was 7.3 miles on the track using 50bar of resistance to keep the speed and concussion to a minimum. I suggested a longer workout, say 12 miles, without resistance but Scott deferred to shorter because of less concussion. In any event, this was a quality steady state workout. With Jelly Bean Scott did a typical up-hill climb exercise. Maybe by reviewing this you all could comment why this is not so good. Based on prior posts and Andrew's one today I'm getting a better understanding. Andrew thank you VERY much for you great post presented in an excellent way, you have a gift my friend. You then said, "Lets see if Scott and Allyson can control HR even more stable with more resistance on the downhill, or going slightly slower on the uphill portion, perhaps adding some resistance to help keep the horse under control." I then understand that you are saying Scott can better replicate a steady state environment with slower uphill and resistance downhill. This based on your earlier input is what we have been hoping to accomplish. But let's look at it from this perspective. If we, considering the slope at MacK Center is a 350 yard (1,050 feet, almost 2/10 of a mile) prime training venue and one which we can use even after the track is free of ice and snow, why are the uphill portions of our workouts not effective intervals? Let's add two more thoughts: 1. We can use resistance both uphill and down hill. If we add more to the uphill, hence increasing heart rate, will we not get still more value? 2. Scott will comment more on this but it's the way the horse's are eating that impresses him when the uphill work is in place. And his theory is based on a horse's gut as it shrinks and expands. Scott...? Maybe the following Polar Curve visual of a typical uphill interval (at least we are calling it an interval for now) workout may shed some light. I have reviewed Juerg's posts again and his input is just not sinking in yet. I'm wanting to do some research on the Kreb's Cycle and came up with the following that is helping me a bit but I know there's more. If anyone has a good "laymen" description that would be appreciated. http://incolor.inebraska.com/mcanaday/main.htm Andrew I glad you and Per hooked-up finally. I spoke to him today too and he said you helped to "confirm" some of his ideas. Thanks for reaching out to him as he is not a member of the FaCT Forum and probably will not ever be. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 365 Registered: 04-2006 |
It is not that the hill intervals are bad. It might in fact be that they are PERFECT. I have only suggested more steady state HR training because I believe it is a better way to build structures that we are aiming for. When we repeat the LBP tests, we will have a better indication of which workouts are having the desired effects, but the real answers will take a little longer to determine. So, in summary, Scott's workouts with Jelly Bean are great, though possibly the intensity of the uphills may not be stimulating the structural changes we desire, and could in fact lead to potential bone issues, despite the lower impact of the training. We see this in track runners, who do high intensity intervals sessions. There was a paper written with this regards that pointed to the metabolic implications leading to abnormal calcium deposition, and not in fact building bone strength as coaches had hoped. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 53 Registered: 07-2008 |
Ahhh, bone density changes. In order to change the bone density in horses, science discovered a long time ago that it takes 6 stride cycles of hard, racing speed, concussion to stimulate the ostioclasts (Osteoclast: A cell that nibbles at and breaks down bone and is responsible for bone resorption.) to demineralize and then in a 10 day period, the ostioblasts (Osteoblast: A cell that makes bone. It does so by producing a matrix that then becomes mineralized.) will lay down new, more dense bone. This process is how bones become denser until they can withstand the concussion of racing. The problem with not getting enough concussion on a regular basis while in training to race is "if you don't use it, you lose it" syndrome. When training uphill, you are not stimulating enough bone concussion in order to creat bone density and therefore, you will need to put the horse on the flat and do "speed plays" at least every 10 days to begin with. Speed plays mean that you go fast for about 6 stride cycles, just less than an 1/8th of a mile in most horses, then back off to a slower pace. | |||||
| Lordpat New member Username: Lordpat Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2009 |
Some thoughts, not in order: I cant call Allentowns workouts "steady state". 7.3 miles under resistance equals probably 15 miles or more without resistance. We are calling it steady state because of trying to keep the HR steady and in the LBP minus 20 category. 7.3 under a load is an intensive workout. As an ex marathoner and running 5 to 15 miles a day for 5 years, I wouldnt have wanted to run a mile under resistance on a steady state run, to say nothing of my weekly 10 miler and my monthly 17 mile run. 90 percent of standardbreds in North America get 4 miles a day jogging on a level track. The only hope they have is real fat trainer. Even if Allentown went 15 miles on a level track he would only be using type one fibers and getting little conditioning. 7.3 miles, hitting type 2 fibers, developing heart stroke, dumping speen,(probably dumped on first uphill), and, doing all this while going relatively slow, is a fabulous workout. As an aged racehorse, his bone density, if ultrasounded, is probably twice as dense as a colt like JB. Probably 3 times more dense than the criminally trained thoroughbreds. Bone density is not an issue with aged standardbreds. Lets face it, we are all learning at this point What I have learned over the years is that only the trainer who daily feels the "life/vitality/desire/interest/" emenating from his horse can evaluate what is going on. The great thing is that we can actually see what is happening via the workout graphs. One thing I learned on using my treadmill and a HR monitor was that the HR immediately identified stress, overtraining and pain. So far, none of the 9 horses being recorded have shown signs of any of the above. I record all 9 since beginning the program. All are proceding very well. Lots of questions. I will state them rhetorically. I believe Allentown will lose conditioning in steady state. All my 55 horses interval trained on my treadmill when going to conventional training lost their edge in about two months. We will see. The LBP minus 20 couldnt work for JB because he reached a 150 HR without really getting a conditioning type of workout. Eric and Al have an LBP high enough that 155 or so gives them a conditioning workout. Ipso facto, a horse has to have reached a level of conditioning that allows a hard workout at LBP minus 20.( I should get some good responses on that).. Between Scotts colts and Misty Time Stable colts ( 6 ) we are progressing to 8 intervals 3 times a week, Cancun has reached that level and the three year olds are now at 6. We increase at one interval a week until 8 are reached. After that who knows, A board meeting with Scott and Allison over dinner and review of the program will lead to final prepping prior to stakes racing. Lots of options, treadmill at slow, long uphill mitochrondria levels, power cart on the track, continue in the field because the horses love it and are all gaining weight. It has become play time for them and probably some level of that should continue. Scott wants to qualify our horses using a HR monitor. Now that will be interesting as it will identify and quantify the parameters needed in a good racehorse. We can look back at the graphs and see what levels of workouts lead to success. Maybe Al's "steady state" workouts will be the key. Remember, in this busines, an aged racehorse rarely, if ever, improves. The only available improvements is allowing the horse to maintain its speed for four quarters. Hell, even a broken down old horse can turn a 28 second quarter, four of those is 1:52 mile on a half mile track! Phew, four 29's whould be good for sure. Maybe we are doing that. Eric and Allentown will tell us. This is the most exciting project I have ever been involved in and the feedback from all is vital I can say that all 9 horses are doing well, physically and emotionally. Perhaps this emotional state is most important as the training gets harder and longer and the races stressful. So far, the horses believe they are playing. Horses in the pasture never go all out for more than eighth of a mile but do it ( young horses) all day. All nine of the Maine horses are training the way horses live. Fortunately we have great tools in the power cart, Polar curves, LBP, and, soon, lactate readings on all the horses, and, something I have searched for these past 30 years, a standardbred trainer who will accept new ideas and enthusiastically put them into play. Never thought I would live to see the day./ Gaylord | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 157 Registered: 07-2008 |
LEONIE How many 6 stride cycle intervals does your information suggest to maximize bone density? What is the suggested recovery between the work intervals? Sam Beegle, one of my early mentors, said, “If a horse has sore legs get the Amish to work the horse on asphalt”. So then it’s all about concussion to build bone density? How early to get started? 18 months? GAYLORD I hope Allentown will help prove the idea that older horses can still improve even if only race at their top speed for the mile. Absolutely we are learning. Do you remember when Andrew and I were trying to reset Allentown’s Central Governor a while back? We were doing 13 second one eighth mile intervals. To build endurance muscles (structural) short intervals will not be as good as long miles. Adding resistance may reduce the miles needed. “Lots of options, treadmill at slow, long uphill mitochrondria levels, power cart on the track, continue in the field because the horses love it and are all gaining weight.” Muscle Mass? Treadmill? Is it running every day? One could get bored with no results. Resistance Carts? They run every day. Basically with a resistance cart you create hills and can determine the steepness and length. Heart Monitor? Beats Per Minute while working is a fundamental concern. Lactate Analyzer? Lactate levels are bio-markers. The horses in the Maine Project are eating very well and gaining weight…muscle mass. Scott claims they are eating between 12 to 16 pounds of grain a day which is a lot. How accurate is your measurement Scott? Qualifying a horse while wearing a heart monitor was approved in Pennsylvania. Gaylord said, “I have searched for these past 30 years, for a standardbred trainer who will accept new ideas and enthusiastically put them into play. Never thought I would live to see the day but I am living it now.” I’m with you Big G, Scott, Allison etal are special people who can help us get to the next level which is just the beginning. | |||||
| Smac New member Username: Smac Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2009 |
I did 2 LBP tests today. Eric The Enemy improved from a balance point of 168 on 1/10/10 to a new balance point of 190 on 2/12/10. If I steady state him at his LBP -20 that seems hard? I did another horse today for the first time (Cancun Time) and his LBP is 195. Cancun Time has been doing just interval work with no steady state work, what I consider to be Per's program as closely as I can imitate. Hope to do Allentown on Sunday, he had a LBP of 175 in early January. He has been working steady state, HR 155 for the last 4 work outs, strickly interval work before that. Time will tell. | |||||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2442 Registered: 04-2006 |
This LBP improve is unreal great and never seen in humans. Can you show us here the steps you did , as well the lactate values and the HR as you collect them. Thanks | |||||
| Smac New member Username: Smac Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2009 |
I am attempting to attach 3 lbp tests I warmed the horses up for a mile and a half..then did a 2 mile step test with speed...then while controlling hr with resistance I stopped every half mile to pull blood and check lactate.
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| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 2443 Registered: 04-2006 |
I unfortunatley can't open your files as they are UNK files if i try to open and don't move over to the FaCT soft ware. Can you simplyy just write : A speed b ) HR at the at speed Time or lenght of the step , Time or length of teh stop for lactate sampling Lactate values at each speed. | |||||
| Smac Junior Member Username: Smac Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2009 |
Eric speed - HR 16.36 - 155 18.95 - 170 21.18 - 200 23 - 212 Lactate - HR 3.1 - 212 2.1 - 155 1.8 - 180 1.0 - 190 2.0 - 200 16 mph for the whole lactate drawing, increased resistance to get elevated HR. Cancun Time speed - HR 16.36 - 155 18.95 - 180 22 - 190 24 - 205 lactate - HR 3.9 - 205 1.8 - 165 1.4 - 180 1.2 - 195 2.7 - 205 speed at 16 with resistance for elevated HR. Each were done with a mile and a half warm up then the step test 2 miles then lactate. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 158 Registered: 07-2008 |
We are the North American continent; Canada, the United States and Mexico. We are blessed to be working in a sport which goes back in time to when humans and horses first teamed up to go faster than other humans and horses. We are blessed to be working in a time and venue where the ideas we discuss, the problems we solve and the visions we share may make a profound impact on where and how our sport courses through the 21st Century. In our midst we have some of the most progressive and brightest racehorse people in North America and beyond…look in the mirror. We have a vision to correlate the best and latest conditioning ideas and information for horses and humans. We are a group of people from British Columbia who condition some of the world’s top human athletes and who are world class competitors them selves. For years they have looked for a path to get involved with racehorses. We are a cranky old sob from Pennsylvania who is a racehorse novice but believes he has found his ultimate calling. Racehorse Conditioning Systems Inc is committed to finding better ways. We are companies like Polar Equine, Innovations of Sweden, Custom of Finland, Lactate Pro of Japan, BioHarness of New Zealand and many more. We are a group of pioneers who met in December at Mohawk Racecourse. We may have more power than imagined and we definitely need to regroup. We are a horse woman from Lexington Kentucky who has been there, done that and got the tee shirt. We are a thoroughbred trainer, raised in a harness family, married to a PhD exercise rider who is a for real racehorse nutritionist and on the staff of Purina. We are a young family in Plymouth Maine whose lives are on the line building a future in racehorse training. They are committed to what we will do together. We are a very happy man from Maine who has been winning horse races for more than 30 years. His significant other is also in for the deal and they too have there lives on the line. We have a wonderful challenge before us of greatness based on horsemanship, science, technology, patience and persistence. I’m watching the Vancouver Winter Olympic opening. Absolutely fantastic WE ARE THE WORLD, WE ARE THE PEOPLE | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 366 Registered: 04-2006 |
I have a few questions... Leonnie...can you post the study you quoted. It would be interesting if it is done the same way many bone density studies in human are down, where a specific treatment (in humans usually drug therapy) is tried, and pre/post bone densities are measured. The problem we have found after years of research, is that improved bone density on DEXA scans does not correlate to a reduction in fracture risk. And, there are new human studies showing that high intensity intervals, can improvem bone density in some long bones (femur) but can lead to catastrophic failure of lower limb bones (tibia). Almost as though the body is stealing calcium from the tibia to give to the femur. I will ask Juerg if he remembers the reference to a study quoted on the human thread here a few months back. Gaylord...it is an interesting theory that states, "Allentown will lose conditioning in steady state." But you might not be wrong at all. Remember, we do not suggest that Allentown remains in steady state. I have recommended steady state HR as a means of knowing what you are doing to the horse, so we know how to modify the program in the next phase. For the horses that are doing intervals, the problem will not arise if they start winning. The trouble will come if they get worse...then we will be stuck trying to figure out whether we should do more intervals or less, faster or slower, longer or shorter. So, the steady state sessions for Allentown gives us an easier way to modify it, once steady state is truly achieved. That is, if we see the expected changes, we will modify the program to meet the new level achieved. If in fact he does not progress, we at least know what we did that did not work. I appreciate your honest opinions, as your experience with horses far outweighs my experience even with humans, and I believe you will have many more great insights and even more questions as this experiment rolls along. I had a very great talk with Per Herrikson the other day. He describes how the horses he has seen trained in a "typical" interval type manner, often race fast early in the season, but can not sustain their speeds, and in fact blow up after 6 weeks of racing. Where as his horses can sustain their speeds for much longer, and get stronger through the race season. This description matches what we believe is the difference between his structural training focus, vs the typical functional training done by most trainers in the industry. It takes time to build the structures, and I am so glad that Joe has been able to convince you and your Scott and Allyson to work with his crippled old horse, and his new young gun. Scott, we will have to be careful at interpreting LBP results done at steady speed with varying resistance, vs LBP measured with increasing speed. The motor unit recruitment pattern at the same HR will be significantly different, and in fact, the horse pulling 16mph with resistance, is doing a completely different sport than the one running 22mph at the same HR. Having said that, the lactate trends do make sense, and justify your initial conclusions. The true test now would be to run them at HR just below LBP (180-185) for a sustained session (2-3 miles) on a flat track, and see if the lactate remains stable or dropping. If so, you have confirmed your LBP at 190. You can do this session on a small track with the resistance, and also repeat it with a race cart, to compare the lactate trends, and see whether their might be a neuro weakness at sustaining this moderately fast intensity for 2-4 miles. If your step tests are accurate, the speeds would need to be 22mph for Cancun Time and just under 21 for Eric. Let me know if it is feasible for you to try this session with your current weather conditions, and give me a call if you need further details on how to get this test session done. Once the treadmill is up and running, this idea will be even easier to confirm. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 159 Registered: 07-2008 |
We are expecting many more contributors. THE GAMES HAVE BEGUN! | |||||
| Smac Junior Member Username: Smac Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2009 |
Andrew, Eric The Enemy's first LBP which was done on 1/10/10 was done in a foot of snow (natures resistance not speed) the test done on 2/12/10 was done with jog cart resistance so I beleive it was basically the same test, wasn't it? 168 to 190 with the major change in his work outs being the resistance cart every day that he trains. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 367 Registered: 04-2006 |
Did you run the same speed in the LBP portion in the snow and under resistance? If not, it would be similar to the difference between a human walking on a treadmill with increasing incline, vs walking at increasing speed. We may see a similar LBP, but it is also possible for their to be differences, under the different muscular challenge. I think you are doing a fabulous job under the changing track and weather conditions, and only pointing out possible things to consider that might explain the dramatic difference in LBP results between the two tests just a few weeks apart. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 160 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew A very interesting question. Adding resistance when going on a snow covered track is like whipping a horse in the last eighth mile when you are winning by 6 lengths. I think as we move forward we may need to seperate protocols for work with and without resistance. Scott has some interesting observations on using a resistance cart. "Our horses show me a very nice attitude with pulling some extra weight even without applying resistance. I am extremely comfortable on the Custom Athletic II. Adding and removing resistance is very easy with the right foot pedal. The horses lower their heads, relax and work primarily on hind-end. Here is a file to open if you have FaCT and Polar software. We are still working on basic ways to post Polar Curves and FaCT Graphs. It is possible one will need to pay extra when wanting to view graphs and curves. There is nothing I don't love about Canada. God has blessed me to have so many friends from Ontario to British Columbia. So will Andy, Ginny and Maddy be spending any time in Vancouver? The TV coverage is fantastic. The job that Scott and Allison are doing is very good. They can keep horses moving regardless of the weather. Their recording to FaCT and Polar software is excellent. Our communication has been great. Although Allentown and Our Black Jelly Bean are our primary horses we know there are many more working behind the scenes. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 161 Registered: 07-2008 |
I'm still having problems working out the file size issue but hope to have it resolved once and for all by tonight. When working I want to post 2 FaCT charts: Sunday's LBP of 180 and then overlap his last one at 175. We'll see how we do. Talking about getting things working there's a possibility the treadmill will be operational today. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 54 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, I have attached an article of bone density training in horses. I looked up several studies in my Equine Exercise Physiology books and they are too long to publish here in the forum. If you are interested in the actual studies, here are a couple of studies: "Noninvasive Measurement of Bone Quality in Horses and Changes Associated with Exercise". Equine Exercise Physiology 2, L.B. Jeffcott et al. Pages 615-630. "Treadmill Exercise Intensity and Its Effects on Cortical Bone in Horses of Various Ages". Equine Exercise Physiology 3, R. N. McCarthy and L. B. Jeffcott, Pages 419-428, 1991. "Skeletal Effects of a Long Term Submaximal Exerciser Programme on Standardbred Yearlings". S. H. W. Buckingham and L. B. Jeffcott, Equine Exercise Physiology 3 Pages 411-418, 1991. These are just a few of the studies that are out there. Dr. David Nunamaker and Dr. John fisher have studied bone changes more than anyone I have read so far.
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| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 162 Registered: 07-2008 |
Here's Allentown's LBP from Sunday. See January 7 for previous LBP which was done here at the farm with a good track.  | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 163 Registered: 07-2008 |
Here's a clearer image.  | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 165 Registered: 07-2008 |
For discussion on bone mineralization please go to new thread Mineralization: De & Re. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 169 Registered: 07-2008 |
Here's Jelly Bean's LBP today.  Here's Peanut's LBP Today  As you see there are significant differences between Jelly Bean and Peanut's LBP tests but both LBPs are very close. Andrew, Jureg and everyone anyone would you please comment to help get us started to discuss what we see with these 2 LBP. Please also go to http://rcswins.com/thoroughbred_lactate/index.htm Following are the value points of Lactate Analysis Juerg outlined about a year ago. Andrew and Juerg please help us deepen our understanding of these points. Your input while minimizing the bio-speak would be a good thing. 1. An additional way to measure the effectiveness of a training program. 2. To help identify changes in certain muscle fibers and ratios i.e. slow twitch fibers to fast twitch fibers and visa-versa. 3. To plan different training intensity zones. 4. To control workout intensities and make appropriate adjustments. 5. To help identify recovery after a race or intense workout. 6. To access pre and post race and workout glycogen situations. Also you can read: http://rcswins.com/thoroughbred_essays/lactate_and_hr/Lactate_and_HR_by_Juerg_2008.pdf Scott, Allison and Buddy Your results in performing the tasks and recording the data is outstanding. Who you are, what you do and how you do it makes us a world class operation. Now all we must do is sort it all out and determine how the information will help our horses race at top speed longer and how it will improve our bottom lines. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 170 Registered: 07-2008 |
A few thoughts. 1. Scott has observed that with Allentown and Jelly Bean after a steady state workout they are a bit off their feed and stand in the back of the stall and seem to sulk. After an interval workout the jump in the feed and come to the front of the stall...very alert. Remember they work every other day and Scott is alternating activities. I don't know what their attitudes are telling us. Maybe after the steady state work they are just more tired form the work while in fact getting more value? Is there a way that by measuring lactate we can get more information on that? 2. This is really directed to Andrew. I want to learn to better interpret the information on the FaCT Graphs. Their lactate levels are similar at all points. Correct me if I'm wrong but Scott did not need to take the 6th step with Peanut as the lactate began to climb on the 5th step. Of course from a conditioning perspective I do not know what any of that means anyway. Remember at Mohawk I was not with the group too often. I'm going back to review your presentation now looking for answers. 3. Looking at the Fit Line Step Test (blue) it appears that Jelly Bean has a higher level of fitness (efficiency?) at both the upper and lower linear limits (ULL & LLL). JB 17mph - 175bpm......23mph - 203bpm Peanut 17mph - 185bpm......23mph - 225bpm I do not know the value of the green line. Maybe we could be doing Step Test workouts more often like at least once a week although Andrew you and Juerg will probably suggest we do the Step Test every day, and remembering the bench marks, use that as a determination of how to proceed with that day's workout. Actually the step test could be considered a good warm-up in itself. Think about it, all we're looking for is stability of beats per minute in the increasing speed steps. If that can happen in 1/2 mile intervals that's great. In a few workouts the horse may be very comfortable and relaxed from the first 1/2 mile step to the last and then do the same speeds every time. Let's say 5 steps based on the same speeds: 15, 18, 21, 24 and 26 for example. We need stability of heart rate. I think what Andrew will tell us is, for example, the horse's ULL is normally 210 at 26mph and today it goes in 200, then do some intervals pushing the upper limits. If the LLL is normally 155 at 15 mph but today it's 165 then do a steady state workout at LBP-20 stimulating M&C development. In any event the idea is to use the ever changing daily situation of the horse to specific work for that individual horse. Am I on the right track here? In any event with Jelly Bean and Allentown we now have current LBP's to help with our steady state work...LBP-20. A final question for now, Andrew did you not suggest a 2 mile interval lactate test or something to somehow confirm the LBP? What's that all about? | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 56 Registered: 07-2008 |
Does Scott have a scale? Weighing the horses daily after their exercise and before they eat or drink will tell you more about Allentowns and Jelly Beans recovery and work load capabilities. | |||||
| Smac Junior Member Username: Smac Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2009 |
A few thoughts about Al and JB. I beleive it was Marc-Andre who said that a horses stomach contracts during hard training, causing stomach discomfort. The long steady state work (HR at 160) for 8 to 10 miles must be causing the stomach to contract, causing the horses to go off their feed for a day or so. Another thing with Al's knees, some heat the day after a steady state work out but never any after 8, 1/4 mile work outs under resistance on my track? I think the short 1/4 mile work outs mimic the horses natural (flight) so well they seem to love them stay sounder and eat better. I tried the steady state work with some other horses with the same results. I have found a every other work out steady state, Int. seems to keep all systems functioning to their liking. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 57 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Scott, I have never had any horse have "stomach discomfort" during hard or steady state training. I have galloped thoroughbreds on the track for as far as 9, 13 and 15 miles in steady state, 5 days per week without them sulking. Steady state training will release endorphins which will calm the animals down. Heavy training will shut the digestive system down for a period of time, this can be re-started by giving them something that they like to eat to get the "juices" flowing again. When you do your steady state with Al, which direction of the track do you go? If I recall, Al's knee did much better when we went the "wrong way" on the track because his knee problem is either medial or latteral (can't remember which), not in the front. A lot of repeated concussion, as in steady state, will be too much for his knee over time, try going the opposite direction for a while. Cheers, Leonie | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 369 Registered: 04-2006 |
First of all...great work Scott and Allyson. You are certainly progressing with the testing well, and it is greta to finally be compiling data from a number of different horses, with differeny ages and experience. A couple of technical notes for Scott and Joe to remember when posting results: 1) The FaCT software allows you to overlap up to 6 different step tests from different dates, or between different horses. So, you can use this feature and post the screenshot, rather than asking people to go back and look at differences. 2) The green line is the "recovery line". It is compiled from the results of the second portion of the test, when you are taking lactate readings to find LBP. 3) Please make some more notes in the "general information" box, as to the length of the steps, and whether there was resistance used. Also, you can add what the track was like, and how the horse looked before and after the test, or how they responded to the different intervals. This will save you having to post it here in the forum after the fact, and give us a better idea of how you ran the test. Now some specific notes, and a few questions, on the most recent posted tests: 1) Allentown's test looks like a textbook FaCT test, if we had ever written a textbook. Great work. You can see from the green line, that after a period of recovery, the speed at LBP almost reaches the original step test line. "Good" recovery from Allentown, with very good speed at LBP (close to 22mph). 2) My Black Jelly Bean results are a bit less convincing. It is fair to say it is impossible for the green points to be above the blue points if the HR had reached a steady state in the first portion of the test. I would have a second look at the Polar curves to see if you recorded accurate HR at each of the steps. From what I see, I would suspect that the step test results do not accurately portray MBJB's performance. As Joe suggested, try a step test in the next few days, paying particular attention to attaining steady state HR at each interval, and look at the results in overlap with the ones posted here, to see if what I have suggested makes sense. One explanation for the very high HR in the first part of the test was discussed here previously, is the "anxiety" of the horse, or the dramatic sympathetic drive that comes with taking a horse onto a track. It is possible with this young horse, that this overshadows the normal HR response we see in every human we test, and in some horses like Allentown who is now used to testing. 3) As in MBJB results, Peanut shows the same "reverse" position of green line form what we should expect from a purely physiologic reaction, so I once again would question the validity of the step test portion. As Joe points out, the final point on the lactate curve confirms what we thought was happening at HR of 190. The only change we would have made would be to have repeated the interval at HR=190 to see if this was a true trend of increasing lactate, or just a small bump resulting from the acceleration from rest back up to speed. In summary, excellent work! Lets have a look at some more of the step tests from MBJB and Peanut to see if I am correct. Wait for the HR to remain stable before taking them to the next step, and record the HR at the end of the step, rather than taking the max HR for the step, or the average HR for the step. Remember, the HR will overshoot initially, and settle back into a steady state after a period of time, as long as you are able to maintain a constant speed with the horse. Much easier on the treadmill, which will be interesting to see when it is up and running. Keep up the great work. Joe's reference to doing step tests before training is a great idea, that needs much more detailed discussions before we can give good advice as to how to proceed and change training plans based on the data. The key is to use the step test data to first ensure the horse is recovered, and sound, before attempting ANY sort of training. That is the first step. The second is to ensure the results are accurate, which is the homework for this week. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 171 Registered: 07-2008 |
Great information Andrew and for sure giving us more things upon which to focus. Thank you. As to home work for this week, it won't be happening until next week. Scott, Allison and the kids are leaving this morning for a week at Disney World. It's much deserved and they will be returning next Friday 03/05. So, it's a week off for the horses as well and they're just playing in the MacK Center paddocks. Can do the overlaps and am sure Scott will be happy to make more detailed notes on any and all workouts. As to the green "recovery line", others may but I do not understand yet what that means nor how to use the information. I have printed out the entire Maine Project thread in landscape and will study recovery lines and other elements. Unfortunately I may not be able to study Polar curves unless Scott leaves his computer on while they are away...I'll try tonight and post additional thoughts and questions as appropriate. One thought strikes me now is to do LPS's on Al, JB and Peanut when Scott returns, perhaps the first time out to see if there is a difference after a week-10 days off. Considering the many variables which are always present when doing these tests on a track (not a big concern parhaps but something we'll need to deal with as we move forward) we may not see much but fun to try anyway. Of course doing our tests on a treadmill may give us more consistancy. In any event of course we'll learn more about the real-time values of LBP testing in the many areas of potential as outlined by Juerg above. I suspect the tool of immediate value will be the basic step tests to measure and monitor ongoing fitness. For sure there are limits to step test values which Andrew and Juerg could outline but from my limited perspective step tests to capture performance or fit lines are great. On the treadmill subject, Gaylords mill is operational and Scott will be indoctrinating all the horses when he returns. Unfortunately Allentown is not candidate with Gaylord's mill. The width is only 26" and with Al's size and wideness of his gait he hits the sides. Final treadmill thought for now. Leonie has a used treadmill she is selling to me. It's very similar to Gaylord's except it has a 3hp rather than a 1 1/2 hp motor and is 39" wide. I hope to pick it up within 30 days and operational by late spring. Although the mill has a fixed 7 degree incline we are rigging a system which will allow us to shift from 7 degrees down to a minus 1. This is a perfect addition to our operation at Old Stage Farm and opens us to much greater potential...some fun! | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 173 Registered: 07-2008 |
Not a whole lot to report other than Scott, Allison and the kids returned home Friday from Disney World and were beck on it Saturday morning. Below are Polar curves of Allentown and Jelly Bean's work on Saturday. It appears, per Scott and Gaylord the week off only helped both horses. G has been keeping his own charts on all the horses and Al's speed and time records from Saturday were outstanding. The consensus is that he and two other horses are ready to race now. Scarborough Downs is set to open now April 3, with qualifying 3/24-27 and 30. The million dollar question for Andrew is presuming Al is in fact ready now where do we place our emphasis for the next almost three weeks...9 to 10 workouts? One thought is mostly steady state long miles at LBP-20. Another is a blended approach with Scott's 8 interval workouts. Scott will also be taking Al, Cancun and Eric to Bangor (18 miles) also for some higher speed work. We want to integrate step tests now but Scott's track is pretty muddy in spots and inconsistent. We're still not comfortable with the treadmill which can give us more solutions. Any thoughts on any of this Andrew?   Unfortunately for me lactate analysis (LBP) is still not clear how it can help measure where we are in fitness. But my gut is saying do another test on Saturday with AL and JB replicating the last ones performed in February except concentrating on steady heart rates in the first phase (maybe going a mile), marking the beats per minute and speed (push the red button) at the same location but making sure the heart rate is steady at that moment then pull the blood for phase 1 after five steps i.e. 14, 17, 19, 21 and 24 mph. Then for phase 2 reducing the number of blood pulls to 4 (when the lactate begins to climb). This is a long and intense workout and believe at least 10 minutes at an easy jog is called for to cool down. Once the mill is looked at as an ANYDAY tool LBP tests will be a snap as will myriad other lactate measurements we can perform. The beat goes on!!! | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 379 Registered: 04-2006 |
For those of who read this forum regularly, you will be used to seeing that the answer to most questions is simply more questions. For the newer readers to the Main Project thread, this might become a little frustrating. I will do my best, but I don;t think the answer is simple, and I certainly have a few more questions before I can give you any real help. Though Polar curves you have attached are nice to look at, but give us very little information on how the horses have changed with the recent training and recovery program they have been on. We can make some conclusions...for example, Allentown was able to post 2:45 min/mile pace with no significant drop in performance, or change in HR over the 8 intervals. So, here is the first question: Why 8 intervals? Why not 7, or 9, or 12. From a FaCT perspective it appears that Allentown was able to perform these intervals at a HR of approximately 190, and was still going well on the last one. So, it brings the second question: Did Allentown actually receive the desired training stimulus from these 8 intervals, or should we have asked him to do 1 more? Now Scot is an experienced horseman, so perhaps he saw something we can not see in the Polar curves. He may have noted a change in stride, or a painful gait, or a struggle to hold the speed. Whatever the reason, we need to know this before we can comment on whether this was the perfect training session. Jelly Bean had a slightly different result form nearly an identical training session. First he was not runnign as fast (3:13 min/mile compared to 2:45). But he also was showing a small trend of increasing HR with each interval, starting around 205 for the first 2 intervals, but then climbing to 220 at the last interval. A significant difference, that shows this was not the same physiologic stimulus for Jelly Bean as it was for Allentown. And this is why the exact same program might not work for two completely different horses. In this case, some of the difference are obvious. Allentown is much older, and has many more steady-state miles of structural development behind him. This may be part of the explanation for his response to the intervals, and may be why he might need to a) go faster b) go longer c) do more intervals to receive the same stimulus that Jelly Bean gets after only 5 intervals. To answer Joe's question regarding the next three weeks of training for Allentown...and I will admit this is only a guess based on the limited information presented here: I would do one or two sessions each week with a focus on continued structural development, at HR well below LBP (LBP-20 to LBP-30). I would spend the third and possibly fourth session each week doing specific training to improve foot speed. We discussed some options at REPS, including uphill/downhill work (as introduced successful by Per Herrikson), and very short high speed intervals. Leonnie has posted regarding the bone mineralization benefits on top of the neuro benefits of short, high speed intervals. So, the final question is how far, and how many? The answer lies in finding a way to challenge the neuro system. So, here is how I would start, if I was able to find a horseman to listen to me. I would do the first interval at a speed that is faster than race pace, and stop as soon as the horse was unable to sustain the cadence that they started with. It may be only a 1/4 mile, but it might be longer, and I would pay very close attention to ensuring perfect form. The I would ease up and allow some time for recovery. Then I would start at the same place and see if the horse can complete the same distance again, at the same speed, and with the same cadence. I would repeat this until I saw the horse was unable, or unwilling to complete the similar distance dictated by the first interval. It may only take 2 or 3 intervals to challenge the horse's cadence, but it may take quite a few more. And this is how I would approach the interval sessions posted above. Not by predetermining the number and duration, but by choosing a specific system to challenge, and then by watching carefully to see if I am truly able to meet that challenge through the intervals I am trying. And after a few days of rest, I would put the horse back on the treadmill, or repeat the step test in the field to see if there has been any changes in the performance with the training I have suggested. If there is positive change, we might actually have learned something, if not, then we can either keep trying, or try something different. Always more questions than answers...something Juerg taught me many years ago. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 59 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, Brilliant suggestion! Good sense to the approach of finding out where each horse is. The only problem that I can see in this is the person in control of the distance and speed of the horse. I believe that they should also have a person on the side lines with a two way communicatin device between the trainer and the assistant, so the assistant will count down the time and check the duration of the interval and the person riding or driving the horse will only need concentrate on the form and cadence of the horse. The reason I suggest this is because these wonderful animals are hard to control if you have to concentrate on too many things while driving or riding it becomes risky doing this with a horse. I always wear a headset with mic and being a rider, have a ring switch that is a push to talk switch that I can activate while still holding my reigns. My assistant trainer, on the side lines, will count me down as I go by the poles on the track. In other words, he is counting one, two, three, four,etc. during every quarter or a mile so I can tell while I am traveling at speed that I will be hitting that 6 or 7 second eight by the time I get to the pole, not after I have passed the pole and cannot alter my speeds anymore. Kind of hard to write this down, however, it works very well having back and forth communication with someone while doing these itervals with horses. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 380 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thanks for the great suggestions Leonie. Some of our equipment is able to send the phsyiologic signals over 500m (Bioharness) which would allow the assistant to sit in the middle of the loop and watch the cardiac and respiratory information without being anywhere near the horse. This way, it would be the assistant as you describe deciding how long the interval would be based on a combination of information, allowing the driver to simply drive. I am hoping Scot and Allyson find the time to start using the equipment that was sent to Joe last year. We often use the Bioharness in conjunction with Polar HR data, as the two collect different information. The Bioharness is able to give a visual reading of the EKG (lead II) in addition to HR, respiration rate and pattern, body temperature. It also has a sensor that determines the amount of vertical/horizontal deviation which may be used to pick up problem with gait as the horse fatigues. I am hoping some data form the equipment will be posted here soon. The two way radio is a fantastic idea, and there are many inexpensive units available on the market now. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 60 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, Can I get some more information on the Bioharness and can it be used on horses that train under saddle as well? | |||||
| Smac Junior Member Username: Smac Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2009 |
Andrew, On all of the horses intervals I use resistance, Joe's Custom 11 cart is an incredible peice of equipment. The 8 intervals at 1/4 mile with an up hill grade has many reasons, this is the distance Per uses and my track for this time of year is really the only safe distance. To steady state any horses with borium on their shoes is very hard on joints, so I try to work them as far and as safely as I can. For some reason 1/4 of a mile of my track is better than the other 1/4. FOr some reason mother nature seems to think spring is here which is hell on race tracks, 50 degrees during the day and 18 at night makes for a long slow process. Even our commercial tracks are struggling but they are a little better than mine. I trained Cancun Time yesterday in Bangor a mile in 2:06 last half in 1:01 last quarter in 30 seconds with very little effort and the track was at least 2 seconds off. His race times should be around 2:00 or a little quicker. He handled the work out very easy, with the interval training. So as the tracks and weather improves I will adjust the work outs to fit the horses needs. I hope to train Allentown this week in Bangor more for my own peice of mind than the horses. Maybe some day I will be able to trust the equipment more but untill then I need to train once in a while conventionally for my benifit. Scott | |||||
| Kevinnally Member Username: Kevinnally Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, I think you really hit the nail on the head with your post of March 11th at 9:20 pm. I agree with everything you said and is it very exciting. Joe and I have talked about how we need to make inroads into the recoverablity of the athlete by pushing them to challenge, as you say, their muscles, heart and respiratory system to higher levels to achieve a positive response to the workout. The exciting thing about your post is that you suggest we can use the Polar Heart monitor, the Bioharness and the resistance carts to get the feedback from the animal about how their bodies are responding to the workload. With this information we can tailor the work out to suit the athlete. What we find is there is no cookie-cutter workout program that you would use on all of your horses. Now each athlete gets their own program tailored precisely to how they are doing in each training session. The real tough part then is your final question, how far and how many? I don't have that answer. But I like your idea of reading the horse as he works and deciding as you go through the workout when to stop. We don't keep going out on the track with a plan to do a predetermined numbere of intervals at a specific distance which says you are done when you get to the last one. From now on we watch the horse and read the feedback we collect from the monitoring tools and stop when the horse begins to reach the point of momentary muscular failure. In this case, it would show up as the horse becoming unable to sustain the cadence it had achieved in the interval work at top speed. We know we are going to keep pushing the athlete to perform until the horse's body tells us it has been challenged sufficiently to produce a training effect. It's a very exciting concept and worth the time and effort to test some theories with Allentown and JB to see "how many and how far" it takes to get them to the winner's circle and bringing home a check. I can't wait til Allentown qualifies and starts racing again. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 381 Registered: 04-2006 |
Scott and Kevin, thanks for the great feedback. For Scott, it is not the track conditions that determine the number of intervals. This is the job of the trainer. SO, all I have suggested is you begin your intervals with a goal of challenging one specific system, and watch how the horse responds to the stimulus. If you are aiming for cardiac challenge, you can add resistance to the hills, but if you are challenging coordination, it may be counterproductive to struggle with weight. Though the weight may shorten up the stride, and force the horse into faster cadence...in which case, it is exactly what you are going for. So, don;t give up on the idea of approaching your interval sets form a different perspective, even if the intervals are done on the hill, you can still look at the response differently. And, Kevin, thank you for being so positive. I really have to admit my ignorance when it comes to how the horses will respond to the ideas. so it is very nice to hear positive responses from trainers like you, Scott and Per who have years of experience to add to the crazy ideas we sometimes suggest. | |||||
| Lordpat Junior Member Username: Lordpat Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2009 |
I have some comments on recent posts re the Maine Project. Resistance training is weight lifting. Weight lifters, body builders never train the same body parts two days in a row. The object of resistance training is to break down muscle cells in order to rebuild them bigger and stronger. It takes a minimum of 48 hours to rebuild and opimally 72 hours to completely rebuild. You cannot train a race horse under resistance conditions consecutive days or the horse will break down. Thus, every other day works but after three workouts the horse/human needs 72 hours to completely rebuild. Sure, horse trainers "jog" their horses 6 days a week. But, all the horse is doing is getting out of its stall for exercize. As far as I know, the only trainer doing what the Maine Project is doing is Per Henrickson. His horses have made more than 15 million dollars! People say that their horses break down using resistance. They surely do because the dumb bastards think that they should do it every day. Doesnt work. I built my own resistance cart 30 years ago, using air brakes. I still have it. I found out that I could walk my horses under resistance but then only three days a week. Scott not only is using resistance but hill work as well, plus Steady State under resistance on the track. Continuous resistance training would destroy all 9 of the Maine horses in about two weeks. I know, I detroyed some good horses thirty years ago in my enthusiasm to use my resistance cart. I have trained weight lifters and spent years weight lifting myself. Another point. Cadence is fine, but to take a horse to the point where it loses its cadence is disaster. A four legged 1000 pound animal with steel shod hooves, can, with one step out of cadence, destroy a tendon. Even well gaited horses are protected with tendon boots just in case they take a bad step. A horse gets out of cadence through fatigue, their fetlocks "rundown" and suspensory tendons tear. A horse should never reach the point where its "cadence" breaks down. The beauty of resistance training with short intervals is that the horse never becomes fatigued. I have observedd every horse in the maine project. they all come back to the barn soaked in clear, marvelous sweat and breathing hard, good, hard workouts and then a day to recover. We are in a new world of equine training. The key is never two hard days in a row. Another point that does not apply to any standardbred over age two. Bone Density: Standardbreds take 6 months to get ready to race. They have 3 to 400 miles under their belts. Any standard breds' bone density is usuually 50% greater than a throughbred that is without doubt the poorest trained athlete in the world. If a thoroughbred had the kind of training we are doing in the Maine Project they could probably race more than 10 times a year. I have had standardbreds that have raced 300 times in their career. Some canadian horses race 80 to 90 times a year as they race twice a week. The discussion of Bone Density does not apply. Bucked Shins do not apply to standard breds. It doesnt happen! As for the next step to have the Maine horses reach racing form, that is the real discussion. That is the "art" and only the trainer who observes these athletes on a daily basis and observes the workout graphs, their appetite, vitality, willingness etc. can determine the "art" of reaching and maintaining racing fitness. I believe these horses will maintaing their racing peak longer than the conventionally trained standarbreds that get to the races after 200 slow jog miles, a few training trips, than "racing into shape' No one in North America is presently training at the intensity that the horses in maine are achieving. Comments that they are not being trained hard enough to "lose ther cadence" etc. strike me as not understanding how these horses are being trained. Also, in Maine we deal with frozen, icy tracks and all horses have their shoes modified with borium "cleats, grabs, protusions" etc, designed to deal with ice and frozen surfaces. These borium additions to the bottom of the shoes affect the gait of most horses, particularly young horses. The young ones will not be doing fast works until the track thaws. This project will contnue to develop training data for years. We are outside the training envelope for training I hope at some point that these methods will be used by throughbred trainers and halt the breakdown of the marvelous horses who thoroghbred trainers send to the killers every year. Gaylord | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 61 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Gaylord, Resistance training can be weight lifting if it is done at a walk; I believe at a faster pace that resistance training is just pulling a heavier load using speed to break the inertia of the resistance. Body building weight lifting does need rest and should not be done consecutively. I will rest my horses (thoroughbreds) two days off a hard work or interval works, by jogging them or galloping them on the off days. I jog or gallop them to contract their muscles to move their blood around and get rid of any work day, metabolism, bi-products in their systems. I agree with your statement about Cadence, by the time the horse looses cadence it is too late, however, before they lose cadence, they will shorten their stride length. Problem is that when you sit behind a horse, you cannot see this, you can, however, see this on the treadmill. When you ride a thoroughbred, as I do all the time, you can feel them shorten their strides. I disagree with your statement about a Standardbred does not develop bone density after the age of two. There is no comparison between the bone densities of a SB vs. a TB; they each need their own level of density and time to develop it. Standardbreds still need enough bone density that will enable them to withstand racing speed concussion, they also gait with two feet on the ground all the time. A thoroughbred needs much more bone density than a Standardbred because they race with one foot on the ground at a time, meaning that they have more than twice as much concussion because they also carry a rider at racing speed, plus their racing speed is faster. The thoroughbred mile record was set by Atticus in 1:31.89 at Santa Anita in 1997 which is a bit more concussion. I would agree that the majority of Thoroughbred trainers have no knowledge or understanding of exercise physiology and the National average of only getting 37 percent of their charges to the races each year is deplorable in my view. It takes me 9 months to get a young Thoroughbred to the races; 94 percent of mine get there. Leonie | |||||
| Lordpat Junior Member Username: Lordpat Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2009 |
Thanks Leonie, I did not mean to say that after age 2 that standardbreds do not develop bone density. I was trying to say that it is not an issue as to soundness. After a proper prepping of a two year old the bone density should not be a problem. Certainly, aged standardbreds develop more density over the years. I am totally impressed with the time you spend getting a throughbred ready to race. I am too familiar with the majority of TB trainers who dont take the time to prepare a 2 year old. BTW cadence ia tricky thing. You really can, for most horses, hear and feel the rythem of the hooves and even watching their big rear ends. I would emagine that riding would send an immediate signal. Do TB trainers in the US not use jog/resistance carts to get miles on a TB? In Australia and NZ many TB trainers hook a TB in the cart and tow 2 horses behind, then alternate on different days. 10 to 12 miles is usual for these workouts. In England the "gallops" are on natural hilly terrain and many miles. I think TB trainers in the US are so traditional that they fear peer pressure or the fact that exercize riders will boycott them. I dont know whether the breed is getting weaker or the trainers are. I have a US Cavalry Training Regimen. Horses were trained 4 hours a day, 6 days a week for 4 years before they were judged fit for duty. Pretty good bone, ligament and tendon development! Last thought, Are any TB trainers following what we are doing> They should be. Gaylord | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 62 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Gaylord, There are a few TB trainers that train with resistance, although they don’t know it. In Utah, there are a bunch of trainers that use a chariot to break and train their race horses. I personally know a few trainers that use some sort of cart or chariot. The problem with using the resistance cart for a TB is that you can only walk and jog using the carts, galloping does not work well because is throws the driver around too much. The shafts of the cart need to become spring loaded or shock absorbed before the carts can be effectively used to condition a TB. I purchased a resistance cart from Joe a few years ago and have several SB carts and harnesses because I do believe that resistance training is a terrific adjunct to my conditioning program. I have trained only one of my TB’s to the cart so far, however. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 174 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew 3/11 @ 9:20 As always your posts are cogent, stimulating and educational. Presently there may be only a few who understand and appreciate the commitment you are making to the horse racing worlds. Thank You! You stated, “The answer lies in finding a way to challenge the neuro system. So, here is how I would start, if I was able to find a horseman to listen to me.” Let’s for now just address the 2nd part. You found one about a year and a half ago, me. Now you have more. Gaylord is buying in 100%. Scott and Allison are close but still dealing with a lot of logistical issues at MacK Center. Leonie is participating and absorbing much new information. It’s fun to work with her great expertise in our area of study. To experience how she appreciates the new ideas is empowering. Kevin Nally is very sharp on exercise physiology for racehorses and humans. Actually Kevin made the first post in FaCT Forum’s Horse Racing and Training Topic. He is well ahead of the curve. Then we have 21 more who may or may not be following along. So my friend your wish is coming true. Leonie 3/12 @10:36 Scott will send the Bio-Harness to you at 130 Harp Innis Road Lexington KY 40511. He and Allison have their hands full on managing what they need to manage presently and no time for BioHarness presently. Kevin and I know the BH can work on horses as we have successful recording and computer results with Allentown. Leonie, you and Greg can get the Zephyr Bio-Harness operational for day to day applications in short order. The software is funky to my liking. Scott As far as working with trainers goes you are my Gold Standard. You have a wonderful attitude and quest for knowledge. You can however overcome some negative feelings about using Gaylord’s treadmill. You, Allison and I have agreed to meet soon via phone to compare some notes from REPS I at Mohawk. We may already know more answers than we think but not aware of it yet. Absolutely you are thinking outside the box. But are you practicing what you think? I am not sure you’re willing to put the new ideas to work as completely as you can. Have you identified the reluctance? It’s all about making a Quantum Leap in your thinking and actions…I can expand on that at another time. What I am saying next is supported by Andrew’s 3/11 comments. Here is Allentown’s Polar curve from Sunday’s training at Bangor.  He did the mile at 2:05 and his heart rate peaked at 192 beats per minute. One conclusion could be, “Wow, he was going that fast with a heart rate well below his maximum of maybe 225…that’s great!” Another could be, “He was not performing anywhere near his capacity, but what can we expect with conditioning to go ten 240 yard intervals (up from 8) and not be stressed to get beats per minute over 190. So, on the track he’s doing exactly what he’s conditioned to do. His life mark on a half mile is 1:58 in spring ’09. Although we are using heart rate as a marker when most trainers don’t have a clue, bpm alone is limited for sure. However an indicator with Al is pointing to is more higher speed work on the hill or when your track surface is drier. Maybe using a combination of speed and resistance to push the training effect (higher beats per minute) up to at least 220...Functional Development. Hey I’m not saying his 205 and last quarter in 29.3 in bad after not racing for 3 months but a greater influence of functional conditioning these next two weeks before he goes racing again seems logical to me. Certainly step tests can help measure performance. If you push the button at the beginning and end of the intervals you have specific points of reference. Other tests need not be 5 intervals but maybe tests with many more steps…as many as he can handle and keep good form. Therefore for Allentown 2 out of 3 workouts a week could be speed work and one long distance session at LBP-20. Allentown and G’s treadmill do not get along. His hinds hits the walls. Jelly bean is another story and here is his workout from today.  Yes his workout today was tough. I’m curious to see how he is tomorrow morning, LMK to 570-332-8062 please. He may even want an extra day off. Going an easy 2 miles tomorrow to stretch his muscles would be great. You can always do a quirt of banamine (10cc) to ease his sore muscles. It’s your call Scott. JB needs a predominance of structural development. He’s did not work so hard as a 2 year old and his foundation is suspect. How is he compared to the other three year olds? So do you want to go 2 or 3 days on structural (Distance LBP-20) and 1 day on functional (High speed intervals)? It seems the treadmill for JB’s could be just the ticket. Step tests on the treadmill could be easy and require about 20 minutes and be a good warm up in all events. After quickly analyzing the results you can continue the session with long slow distance at LBP-20/30 or high speed intervals. Do you think it would help JB if we added another day for structural work (3 and 1)? Until your track is set up a bit more you could do up and down in the field with JB. Use no resistance going up hill and then go slow down hill and add some resistance to keep his heart beats about 155 to 165 (LBP-20 or 30). We know he is eager and likes his work but it could be good if he were just a bit more settled too? As to Andrew’s suggestion of short interval speed work going faster than race speed I think you can do that on your track with Allentown. Consider the stretch that goes slightly down hill and shoot for one 1/8 mile intervals in say 14 seconds (1:52). If he likes it and keeps good form, do another and another. What do you believe his race performance would be if he did 8 or 10 1/8 mile intervals at 14 seconds? We started to do this protocol at Pocono but were inconsistent, had control problems with Al and competing business demands got in the way. Talking about doing the tests is easy. Sometimes performing the tests is not so. Leonie’s follow-up suggestion with a person on the side with a head set is good but once you and the horse know the routine you can do it all with the Polar receiver. With high speed intervals use no resistance.With Al use the snake bit and over-check. With your youth and strength and on your track there is a better chance you will get the job done. Bring the speed down between the intervals so the recovery time is 60 to 90 seconds. With all our horses we need better understanding and ways of testing for optimal performance. There are questions than answers. Kevin 3/13 @ 3:20 Your post is powerful and progressive. You understand the program, the potential and you are positioned for positive profit in your pocket. Neat alliteration Kevin, Powerful, Progressive, Program, Potential, Position and Profit in our Pockets…we are Partners. Lord Pat 3/14 @ 8:57 Undetected loss of cadence could be a very a scary scenario even for an aged horse like Allentown. This is especially difficult as anyone can be challenged with just controlling the horse. You also need to push buttons, watch the time (speed) and look, feel and listen. If anyone can do it I believe Scott can. Our job as racehorse trainers is part science and part art and that’s some fun. We are certainly outside the traditional training envelope. Leonie 3/14 @ 12:14 She said, “I would agree that the majority of Thoroughbred trainers have little or no understanding of equine exercise physiology. The US average gets only 37 percent of their charges to the races each year which to me is deplorable.” Lord Pat 3/14 @ 1:13 “In most racehorses you can see, hear and feel how they are doing. That is not enough information however.” “Using a resistance cart to condition thoroughbred racehorses is almost a no brainer. Most T-bred trainers do not impress me unless they sit on or behind one of their racehorses every day.” Gaylord there are some thoroughbred trainers who read and make posts, but they are very sporadic. | |||||
| Smac Junior Member Username: Smac Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2009 |
A couple issues, when I trained Allentown in Bangor it was a very easy trip. The reason his heart rate stayed down was he did the work with no effort. Yes I am positive, if I had trained him in 2:00 would you have felt better? With Al's knees that would just be stupid. He is an aged horse with a mark of 1:53,he knows how to go fast, he gets foot speed (cadence)every workout going uphill and under resistance. Can I get Allentowns Heart rate 220 with the workouts I have been giving him, yes I can but is there a need, or is it just look good in the polar curve? I think after Al qualifies his work should consist of -30 or more of slow steady state work with plenty of recovery time after the race. But if you want me to do speed work, I will with your horses. I do beleive that most of what Andrew talked about in Canada was his athletes not over training between competitions, more slow steady state work. Scott | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 382 Registered: 04-2006 |
Scott...I agree with you. Pushing Allentown HR to 220 has no benefit. In fact, it will likely have negative consequences. So, please don't change what you are doing. My only suggestions were to approach the intervals with a specific intention of working the current weakness. If we feel it is cadence, then we should pay particular attention to what Al's cadence is in training and at race speed. Are you able to measure the uphill cadence for us? It is easy to do with video, or with simply counting every foot strike (front right for example) over 15 seconds. The new Polar equipment has a great cadence meter which we discussed attaching to the nail, or even at the ankle. We use it in humans to give cadence, speed and stride length. If it were attached to the nail we could use it the same way in Al. In any case, I would like to see exactly what his cadence is, and what we think it needs to be to go sub 1:52. If you can get the video from his first race, we can analyze that for cadence changes over a race distance, and see if he is truly able to sustain race pace cadence. If not, then we have our specific goal for the next training block. If his cadence is good at his first race, we need to approach training to improve stride length instead. You are doing a good job. Joe's suggestions are simply ideas that need discussing, not critiques on what you are doing. And on JB's curve, we once again see an escalating HR and a dropping speed with each interval. It is easy to see the lack of structural training, and my belief is he needs more of the steady state sessions to overcome his current deficiencies. Can you comment on what he is doing currently for structural training. | |||||
| Smac Member Username: Smac Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2009 |
Andrew...Allentown is doing very well, a real pleasure to sit behind and I will try to come up with a way to count his steps (I hope). His lower heart rates have alot to do with his comfort level. He goes about his work and training like a true pro. His stride length is very big and he covers alot of ground with each stride. JB is a different cut of cloth.. His last workout the power company was fixing the lines and he thought the boogie man was after him. I beleive this had alot to do with his heart rate being so elevated. He will get summer shoes tomorrow and this will reduce any joint stress so I will be doing alot of steady state work with him. One thought I had on steady state was a warm up 1 interval to dump his spleen and then do his entire work out with a greater blood volume. I would think that with more blood volume for more miles would build a bigger heart, more capillaries and mitochondria or am I way off base? Scott | |||||
| Ken New member Username: Ken Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2010 |
RE: allentown graph 03/14. At what points does the mile work start and end? I'm presuming the nice steady graph is his warm-up. If so why are there so many valleys for his mile work? What is his recovery heart rate after 1, 2 and 5 minutes.Is he a fit horse? Just trying to understand. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 383 Registered: 04-2006 |
It looks to me like Allentown did a steady state warm up for 10 minutes, and then did some short intervals (30-60 seconds in length) before starting a one mile piece that started around the 12 minute mark of the session. You can see there is a delay in the HR rising, and then a spike up to 192 beats/minute. Remember, the heart rate will have some lag time before it responds to a fast interval, and the HR may have in fact wanted to go much faster at the speed he was running, but he was not given enough time for this to occur. And this was not the focus of the session. The focus I believe was to develop some foot speed, and test his soundness at this rate. SO, I believe Scot accomplished this, and that Allentown would have shown significantly higher HR response had the interval been any longer. I believe Al is very fit, after completing over 18 months of steady state training. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 175 Registered: 07-2008 |
Scott, Thank you for sending the BioHarness to Leonie, please add cost to the training bill. Andrew is correct my comments are intended to spirit discussion. Would I have felt better if you trained him at 2:00? No. I am pleased if you are pleased and believe you did fine. That was his first mile with any speed in almost 4 months. As to what he needs to optimize his speed potantial getting ready to race again and to keep him peaking once he is, I will defer to you sitting behind him every day he works and to Andrew's expertise in exercise physiology and conditioning. Is it really not how fast he goes but rather how long he can hold his speed? With JB we are all on the same page, more steady state functional work is called for to improve his endurance. Once he gets the idea hopefully he'll relax and his heart rate can settle to about 155 - 165 for most of the workout whether on your track, in the field (slower speed up and resistance down) or on Gaylord's treadmill. Ken, it's good to hear from you. Hows's it going? Without seeing the start and finish of the mile (Scott remember to push the red button) we can only guess. I think Scott started the mile at about 8.5 minutes and ended at about 10.6 minutes. Then again as Andrew suggests the speed mile could have started at about 12 minutes where possibly the belt slipped and contact was impared. Soon Scott's race bike will be fixed with a speed sensor which will help. In any event something happened and a quality connection between the electrodes on the belt and the horse's hide was lost at 11 through 15 minutes which is why we see the inconsistant bpm. Scott perhaps you can clarify, when did you start the mile? Andrew, Scott's watch/receiver is set with a record rate of every 5 seconds. We can change that to every second but then the Polar curves will become very difficult to analyze unless we go into looking at the actual numbers in the Listing function (the 11th top icon just to the left of the Zoom 1-1 icon). We all agree that Al is fit and ready to race again. His qualifier in a couple of weeks will be interesting. Let's hope he gets a good post position and in with horses equal to his class. My experience is that he is at his good getting away 3 or 4, engaged with the leader and tipping to pass just before the 3rd turn on the half mile. But of course the way the race is going and our position dictates. If he is in position at the 3/4 mark to roll 2 or even 3 wide in the final turn a good finish is usually the result. Wouldn't it be great if it was just that easy! | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 384 Registered: 04-2006 |
We have our Polar watches to record data every 15 seconds. It smooths out the curves a great deal and makes interpretation easier. There are no changes to HR that occur faster than 15 seconds that we are concerned with. And don't worry about start position...Al will hold his speed through the race, and can make "moves" (which are really just holding speed while the other horses slow down) in the final stretch if he needs to. Just my opinion. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 176 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew As always thank you for your thought provoking post. Yes if we wanted to show pretty curves then 15 second recording would help. Obviously if we are doing 1/8 mile intervals in 14 seconds we need quick recording rates and 15 second rates for sure won't do it. Scott Let's try some RR-1 recordings to compare to our RR-5 stuff. I can help you re-set the watches. When doing very fast short intervals, recording by the second is what we need. Andrew Thank you also for your opinion on the dynamics of a harness horse race. It is all about carrying top speeds throughout the race and to still be quick to the finish to fine tune position. Since then it is endurance and agility, do you believe that Allentown has reached his potential in both areas? What systems are at what work here? 1. Neuromuscular for sure...Agility. 2. Muscular Skeletal...much reduced with a mature horse but must be monitored daily. 3. Cardio-Vascular...duh! 4. Psychological...who knows what really goes on in a horse's mind. Monty Roberts seems to have a good understanding. There are people in our group who can share a lot of thoughts about how the horse reacts and "thinks" in racing situations. 5. Respiratory...the only thing to say about Allentown's breathing is that at the end of a race he's not at all winded. That shit's gotta stop. When our horses come in from the race they better show me that they tried. The BioHarness may help us analyze respiration data to develop more complete conditioning programs. 6. Brain and Central Nervious System...The Central Governor. The Cardio-Vascuilar Anerobic Model is history in my mind and replaced/ enhanced by the Central Governor Model. Some good conversations occured today between the Old Man and MacK Center. We discussed speed work versus endurance work with Allentown. Our speed work could be 1/8 mile intervals faster than race pace. Andrew that's what you had me doing with Al last summer. As to getting a horse's heart rate close to maximum often when training seems to me to be only a good thing. Why do you have a problem with that Andrew? | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 385 Registered: 04-2006 |
If you are doing 1/8 of a mile interval, then don;t worry about the HR, as it will not have time to react to the stimulus and will give you no useful information on the cardiac dynamics of the interval itself. The interval is simply too short to stimulate a HR response. The value of the interval is for neurmuscular coordination, and for potential bone remodeling as discussed by Leonie in a previous post. Nobody knows whether Al has reached his potential. That is the fun part about training him. We get to see if we can break through his current limitations with training. My problem with getting Al's HR to max, is that it will have unknown results. To simply push HR for the value of pushing HR makes no sense. At that intensity, he is unlikely developing cardiac volume, and may in fact be destroying structure. Plus, it will put him at higher risk for injury both in terms of decalcification and possible muscle tendon injuries. Don't confuse the value of doing high cadence neuro training with the need to drive the HR to max. We would much prefer developing his heart to produce the same cardiac output with a lower HR, rather than reaching the same level with a fast HR. Welcome to REPS II... | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 177 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew WOW! Thank you for your excellent input. You are one impressive dude, Doc. Or is it one impressive doc, Dude. Well you get my drift. Yes pretty soon we need to be talking about REPS II. Scott I'm thinking deeper about my pushing to do the very high speed 1/8 mile intervals on your track and trying to visualize the dynamics of coming out of the straight and firing into a turn at very high speed. It could create some nasty issues in the front joints especially if the horse is going a little downhill. To do those slightly down hill high speed intervals you may almost need a mile track, a straight strip of at least 1/2 mile with a slight decline or a treadmill that can be adjusted to go slightly down one half or one degree for example. The idea is to force increased stride length, which you're not crazy about. We're probably getting increased foot speed values from your up hill interval work and perhaps we could just count our blessings on that thanks to Per Henriksen's input and his success. The beat goes on! J | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 386 Registered: 04-2006 |
The ida of downhill running is to challenge stride length in a horse who we think has this as a limiting factor...which is not the case for Allentown. So, we are purely looking for increased cadence a this point. We believe the uphill work is forcing him into the higher cadence, but need to make some measurements, to ensure what we think we are doing in training is actually true. Most people won't care as long as it works. We are not most people. We want to see if we can find training methods that address the specific physiologic challenges we want to train. And this way, we can develop a training program that is different for each horse, that best allows them to improve their weak link. | |||||
| Lordpat Junior Member Username: Lordpat Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2009 |
Phew! we are cutting edge for sure, but downhill speed works fall in the category of plyometrics. Plyometrics can harm humans. It is designed to take an exercize beyond what can be achieved normally. For human sprinters, the plyo labs put you in a harness and lower you on a high speed treadmill in hopes that the neuromusclar system can "learn" a faster pace, also towing at faster than your fastest leg speeds, two athletes using rubbber bands hooked to their waists and alternating opposing sprints. For hocky players the plyo labs have uphill "ice" for skaters. The most common ply exercize is jumping off a platform and turning that jump into an instant rebound. Their are plyo exercizes for all sports. If someone is interested in applying these beyond normal forces to horses I would recommend buying 3 or 4 yearlings and testing them to destruction to see what they can take. You would get all sorts of bone and structural changes to view on autopsy. To try this with an aged horse with excisting joint, bone, tendon problems is asking for quick destruction. This is how I see downhill works to increse stride length and cadence. The forces are immense, little legs, massive muscular bodies. It may have merit but the lab rats doing this should be viewed as disposable. We are not at the plyometric stage in horse racing. We do use resistance training, but so did Ben Hur 2000 years ago, horses pull. We do use treadmill but from level to 10%. Some trainers have attached weights to the horse while on the treadmill. I even had a set of leather boots that you could put lead weights in to "leg up" a horse. Sold them for 5 dollars after one use. we have reached new levels here in Maine and we should build on it. Many years ago I retained Tom Ivers to set up my training program. He was way ahean of his time. His concepts were great, but Scott has gone beyond that with the wonderful learning experience at Fact. I am 78 and should be in a hurry, but the next few years will teach us all, and, even though my curiostiy knows no bounds, we must proceed by listening to the horses, Scott, Andrew , and Joe as we observe this wonderful project. screw the downhills!!!1 | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 63 Registered: 07-2008 |
I would like to share some interesting information about horses traveling uphill. I saw several posts of the theory that a horse will shorten his stride while going uphill. I have counted stride frequency at a variety of elevations, from the flat to a 7 degree slope on my treadmill for years and I have never had an increase in stride frequency in any horse. They just simply do not shorten their strides by going up a slope. I have a lot of hard data to back up my statement. Gaylord, I would like to correct your statement about plyometrics. Plyometric training is also known as bounding or jump training, not running downhill as you implied. Plyometric exercises are specialized, high intensity training techniques used to develop athletic power (strength and speed). Plyometric training involves high-intensity, explosive muscular contractions that invoke the stretch reflex (stretching the muscle before it contracts so that it contracts with greater force). The most common plyometric exercises include hops, jumps and bounding movements. One popular plyometric exercise is jumping off a box and rebounding off the floor and onto another, higher box. These exercises typically increase speed and strength and build power. I think that you may be refering to "overspeed training" instead. I have a plyometric hill designed that I want to build in my agility course at my training facility. The horses will bound up onto a platform, then up to another, etc. until they reach the top of the hill, then they walk down the other side. Also, I will use leg weights on horses, especially ones that have had EPM, or other injuries where they have atrophied muscles, but I place the leg weigths on the cannon bones, never on the pastern or the hoof and have had terrific results building upper body muscles that way. When you put the weight below the cannon bone, then the ankle has to swing the weight and that alone can cause injury just like using heavy shoes on horses can cause their ankles to become stressed or injured. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 387 Registered: 04-2006 |
Leonie...GREAT POST! Your ideas for training are truly inspired. As Lordpat pointed out plyometrics can harm humans...but I would argue, plyometrics do NOT hurt humans if done properly, given appropriate structural development. In fact, plyometrics may in fact prevent injury to athletes who use it wisely. I agree with Leonie's description of plyometrics in the strictest sense, but would also add that downill running is an example of a very functional repetitive plyometric running drill. The idae of a forced eccentric contraction of the quadriceps muscle, followed by a rapid concentric contraction as in downhill running, is exactly what is mimicked by jumping down off a box and exploding back up. The uphill jumps Leonie describes will do less damage, due to the lower forces absorbed compared to jumping down the hill. Which is why I started this post as I did. It is a great idea for a modified plyometric training plan. Back to Lordpat's comments about running downhill. I presume he has not worked with 3-Day event horses that regularly race over varied terrain, including downhill sections and drop jumps, with riders on their backs. And though I will once again admit my ignorance as to what the right way to train a horse is, I would like to submit the idea that one must have a way of training these horses to run downhill safely. And, if a 3-day Eventer can run downhill with a rider on their back, then we can certainly train standard breds, and even thoroughbreds to run downhill as well. | |||||
| Smac Member Username: Smac Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2009 |
True Andrew 3 day event horses do run down hill but with the distances they are traveling the horse is not full out. I could train a standard bred down hill as long as I didn't go full out, or make a habit of it. ... I have found that with resistance and going up hill my horses strides are longer and the cadence is quicker. Allentown is around 21 steps at 21 mph in 10 seconds with resistance on the flat and 23 steps uphill in 10 seconds with the same resistance. That is with a stop watch and counting, so human error could come into play. But I did it a few times with the same result. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 64 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew,interesting information about treating downhill running as a form of plyometric training also, thanks. I have found that whatever humans can do in training there is always a way to obtain simular results with horses. It is about being able to control the animals during the exercise. Horses only think of one thing at a time and whatever they are focused on is what they are thinking about. Their response to stimuli is either flight or fight. Horses need to be taught "how to learn" which is done by communicating with them through their own body language plus with the use of training aids, we can condition their response to our stimuli. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 388 Registered: 04-2006 |
I never said to run a horse full tilt down hill. I said to consider downhill running could be used to teach a longer stride length. This could be done at whatever speed achieves that goal, which may in fact be simply a moderate tempo, similar to what is achieved in 3 Day Eventers. Leonie...one last question. Does the stride length and cadence remain the same outdoors on the hills as it does on a treadmill? These are two completely different situations for a horse. The treadmill actually helps the human athlete by removing the necessity to use the hamstrings to pull the foot past the centre of gravity, whereas outside running puts much more demand on these and the gluteal muscles. I would be interested to see a video of a horse running uphill on a treadmill vs outside at the same speed and same slope (not necessarily the same intensity) to compare the stride length and cadence. Does anyone have a video camera they could use in training this week to post a short video clip on You Tube for us all to watch. All I need is about 10 seconds of footage with the horse at steady speed. Record HR, speed, and angle of the slope, and I can count the rest. Close to race pace would be good, but doing it at a pace close to LBP would be fine as well. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 65 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, I know that when I train a horse at a certain speed, above aerobic, on my treadmill, then take that horse to the track and let him do whatever speed he wants, he will do the same speed as I last did on the treadmill. Interesting enough for the neuromuscular co-ordination of the speed. I rarely train my horses on the flat on the treadmill because I am not obtaining the same HR or tendon flexion as I would get on the ground. I came up with training on a 2 degree slope to simulate training on the racetrack with a rider up, back in the early 90's. Research later verified that the stressors of a horse on a 2 to 3 degree slope on the treadmill mimicks traveling over ground. I have never counted stride frequency on the ground because I am always the rider on the horse. I will be obtaining some gait analysis boots that someone in the UK just manufactored to do the comparison between treadmill and track training gait. I have a nice video camera, but my treadmill is not installed just yet, be a few more months, darn it. However, I do have a video of a horse going at racing speed on my treadmill, his heart rate was maxed at 236 and I believe we did this on the flat. If you would like something like this, I can accomodate. I also have many video's of horses galloping and working on the treadmill from the past. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 389 Registered: 04-2006 |
I am particularly interested in seeing the video of a horse at the on a treadmill, on an incline treadmill, on the flat, and up a hill, all running at the identical speed. In the past, this has been difficult to measure, as there were no good ways to measure speed on a moving horse, unless they were on a track. But now, the new Polar RS800cx has a foot pod which can be attached to the toe, or a boot, be calibrated very easily, and give both cadence and a very accurate speed reading directly to the watch immediately. We use this system for our runners who are working on stride length and cadence, to give them ongoing feedback as they work on making changes to their cadence through training. It works very well, and is incredibly accurate. The foot pod is only a $50-$80 investment if you already have a Polar 800 watch. I would suggest it is an excellent additional piece of equipment for any trainer working on these ideas of cadence and stride length. I presume they are available through the FaCT-Canada store, or can easily be obtained through Joe's contacts at Polar. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 390 Registered: 04-2006 |
I just realized, Scott posted some cadences to review in his post from March 19. He said "Allentown is around 21 steps at 21 mph in 10 seconds with resistance on the flat and 23 steps uphill in 10 seconds with the same resistance." So, he was right in saying his cadence improves on the uphill, which is not surprising. To do this he MUST shorten his stride, or would be running uphill at 21mph against the added resistance of the cart, which I think is not possible. So, in my mind, this is the PERFECT way to train his cadence. The only thing to check now, is to see Al's cadence at race pace on the track. This can be achieved either by having someone with good eyes at the track in a few weeks when he races, or by looking at past race videos if available. The we can ensure that the 21 paces in 10 seconds (126 RPM) is where we want to train him. Remember, we are aiming for a cadence that is FASTER than his race pace, not simply faster than his training pace under resistance. Keep up the GREAT work Scott. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 178 Registered: 07-2008 |
Our team is on FIRE, Andrew, Leonie, Scott, Gaylord and Ken, great questions, great answers and still more great questions. There is much I want to say and many questions to ask. From Friday to yesterday I’ve logged over 1600 miles to Lexington through the Meadows in Washington PA. Leonie is working on her treadmill for sale to get more speed and newer/more appropriate electronic and mechanical unit elements. I need at least 15 miles per hour when ever I want it. Tomorrow is 8 weeks since my knee replacement and I now have an issue with my right eye involving a blood leak. I need to find time to rest. Aging is not for sissies. Here is Allentown’s qualifier line-up for yesterday at Scarborough. They got 2 inches of rain so not a fast track. We had nothing to prove today just get qualified. Scott and Allison had a busy one with Al in the 5th, Eric the Enemy in the 6th and Cancun time in the 7th.  Not able to access MacK Center computer for more visuals right now but Al finished 2nd with a 2:05.3 in his race. He was faster than some very high class horses. Out of about 70 horses he has the 7th fastest time. During qualifiers they battled, sleet, snow and rain. Al’s bpm maxed-out at 2:12. Scott said he was cheating. Horses do not cheat as that involves ability to reason. If a horse acts lazy and does not try to win then lets consider these thoughts: 1. He’s sore. 2. He’s been conditioned to not want to work so hard and does not have a winning attitude. 3. He’s not conditioned for top speeds. Since March 17 there have been some wonderful posts. We are digging well below the surface and still going deeper. Trainers who would begin to want to understand what we are talking about are unique. It’s possible even those who do and joined us at Mohawk are lethargic. Who has a Polar CS600? Are you having problems? Call me at 570-722-2658 for some basic help. As long as there are humans and horses there will be a quest for speed and winning races. Our advanced ideas and protocols will overcome and surpass the old but it may take a long time to make an even small dent in the armor of traditional racehorse training thinking. Actually I don’t give a damn about what other pro harness trainers think and do. To me our FaCT Canada and FaCT Education partnership is about interested and committed stables winning more races, bringing in more money and getting trainer and driver stats well over 300 every year. Does anyone have a problem with that? Have you grasped the potential? I’ve got many questions and comments since 03/17 and will try to catch up with my posts. In the mean time please ask some more questions and expect we will together find some answers even if incomplete and just leading to more questions. Participate! Horse racing’s only hope to again become a big-time interest in North American sports viewing may be to totally eliminate performance enhancing drugs and help people re-connect with the value 1(one) horse power…good luck. Nite J | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 391 Registered: 04-2006 |
Well done Allentown and Scott. A few questions about the race: 1) How was the race run? Did he hold steady pace from start to finish, or fall off at the end. Or, was he able to accelerate towards the end? 2) He obviously handled the wet conditions well. Do you think it slowed his cadence down? 3) Was his stride shorter or longer than it would have been on a dry track. Joe...do not assume the fact that Al did not reach "maximum HR" is a sign of not being properly conditioned. In fact, it may the precise opposite. A larger heart, and subsequent stroke volume will allow for an equal cardiac output and hence VO2 with the same performance. So, in fact, I am very happy that Al ran the speed he did with the lower HR. It may be an indication that the training is having the desired cardiac effects we were aiming for in training. Don't question his conditioning, until we can see his speed on a fast track against good horses. I don;t exactly know how the qualifying will affect his upcoming races, but presume his relatively good finish in comparison to the field is good news for the Main Project. Joe, take care of the knee and the eye. Scott, keep up the great work. I will look forward to hearing the answers to the above questions when you get a chance. Well done. | |||||
| Smac Member Username: Smac Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2009 |
Al had pretty much a steady pace through the mile, the track was a little slippery so I just wanted him to qualify and not get hurt...Al is a machine in any workout you want to do, then in the race he is reserved. I said he "cheats" but I guess horses are not capable. I have driven a few I would argue that point over with anybody. For his first race I will have him fired up during the post parade and see if it changes his outlook on racing. I think he will be fine. | |||||
| Lee New member Username: Lee Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2010 |
HI it is Lee Watson from Fact 1. This email is to Joe Geisi . I was wondering if anyone in Canada is selling your resistance carts. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 179 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew I try not to assume anything. The fact that Allentown's heart rate stayed so low at 210 may indicate a number of things but bottom line he may not have raced even close to his potential, but this is the first time he has ever raced with a heart monitor. Do you believe that in the few months of excellent conditioning he has had at MacK Center that his heart size has increased or stroke volume improved? Do we believe that his maximum heart rate has decreased? The predominance of his work has been on a 250 yard hill with Scott applying 50 bar of resistance on the up-hill with his heart rate rarely going over 190 bpm so what bearing if any has that had on him racing in the mud with a top bpm of 210? As Scott posted he did not push Al at all, all he wanted was to qualify and get a first feel of him in a race. Scott concluded that Al did not try and characterized that as cheating. When he came in from the race Al was acting like he did virtually no work which is often his case. Leonie and I have had many conversations on a horse’s ability to “reason” versus “conditioned response”. So a question is, when does conditioned response become reason? In last week’s race did Al reason, through conditioned response, that “I’m only going to exert myself about the same as I do back home on the hill”? How did his Central Governor play into this? One school of thought is that if you want a horse to race at top speed you need to train at top speed. Al has had no top speed conditioning since January’s arrival at MacK Center and with his regular quality work what effect will it have on his top speed in a race on a fast track? Since 01/13, Al’s first workout at MacK, he has logged 123.3 miles in 28 workouts and only a few times did his heart rate briefly exceed 200 bpm. Is his Cardio-Vascular system conditioned to limit beats per minute so far under what we believe his maximum of 225? Gaylord has been recording extensive data on each horse at MacK and may have more information for us to consider. Let’s divert to this idea, Scott is preparing to do a MAX HR test Wednesday on Allentown. Al worked on Saturday with two days off after Wednesday’s race. He’s rested today and will not work Monday and Tuesday. So he’ll be rested for the test. Here’s the drill (All going counter clock wise on the track, no over check, a snake bit and your Athletic II resistance cart). Warm up with easy jog for 10 minutes with no resistance. Then apply 70 bar, push the red button and go 2 minutes at 19mph and push the red button. Take off the resistance and go down to a very slow jog for 90 seconds (recovery). Next, apply the same resistance push the red button and go 2 minutes at 21 mph. Push the red button, remove the resistance and slow down for 90 seconds. For the last step push the red button, apply the resistance and go to 24 mph. When you see the beats per minute level off for 10 to 15 seconds you should have his MAX HR. Push the red button take off the resistance and slow down for an easy jog for 10 minutes. Good luck in the finish cool down and for the 90 second recoveries as you know he’ll be on the bit. This is an intense work-out and every bit equivalent to a race and actually a very good pre-race if done on Wednesday for a race on Saturday. You will absolutely want to add multodextrin to each feeding between then and race time and we need to talk about that. I ask you jog him easy for 2 miles on Thursday AM (very important), then in the paddock Thursday afternoon and Friday then race Saturday. Let’s talk about using the malts on a more regular basis now. I like event 5 for Saturday $5000 Claimers what do you think Scott? Okay let’s go back to where we left off. Is it not all about macro vs micro conditioning? Here’s my current highly simplified “skeletal” view of 8 systems of a racehorse (there may be more) which are monitored and controlled by its Central Governor. Let’s play a mnemonic game with this acrostic sentence to help remember them: Can Max Push Rob Before Ed’s Nuclear Finish C…Cardio-Vascular System - Beginning with beats per minute to build aerobic-oxygen dependent and anaerobic-oxygen independent muscle fibers. M…Muscular-Skeletal System – More of a concern with a young still growing horse. P… Psychological System - Wanting to go faster than the competition and remember the horse wants to please. R… Respiratory System - Oxygen exchange. BioHarness? B…Brain and Central Nervous System – The Foundation System E… Energy System - Krebs Cycle and building the mitochondria bed and capillary population. N…Neuro-muscular System - Foot speed, stride length and agility. I love Leonie’s agility game of a horse bounding up a hill from one plateau or platform to another. Scott both you and I have the terrain to do this as does Leonie and Per Henriksen. F…Fuel System - Glycogen Diminishing and Repletion. Marc-Andre and I had a nice chat Friday about a clearer understanding of glycogen dynamics and hope to make a post soon in the Glycogen Depletion and Glycogen Reloading thread which we may perhaps re-name. We can be happy with Al's results last week but must reserve excitement. Race times are not always an indicator but if he races and wins on a half mile track in 1:58 there may not have been much improvement (last quarter times will tell us more). The relatively low heart rate may indicate that he was not into the race…just going through the motions. But if he wins on a half in 1:57 that’s another story. Of course much of that is in just how a race goes and how Scott “wakes him up”. Show me some consistent wins on a half mile in :57 or faster and we have a story to tell about our new wave methods…many may then be impressed although remember I don’t really care about THEM. What I do care about is the welfare of our horses and that Scott and Allison are doing a fantastic job. But are Allentown’s workout schemes providing balanced development for all systems? Andy thanks for asking, my knee is coming along nicely with steady improvement of both flexion and extension. We have probably found the blood leak in the right eye next to a recently repaired retina tear and the vision is getting better every day. Presently health-wise I have only one more challenge which is fixing an Atrial Flutter and an ablation procedure is scheduled for April 28. My sometimes overly aggressive lifestyle may be taking a toll or maybe now at 65 am just finding some congenital weaknesses. I haven’t quit smoking yet but am getting more exercise and trimming the 20 pounds of extra weight. By the way Marc-Andre's knee is also coming along nicely but his wife Belinda broke two vertebra in a recent horse accident...they've had a tough 8 months. Here is the Polar Curve of Al’s qualifying race.  Here is Allentown's USTA race results.  Jelly Bean Below is a combined Polar Curve view of his last 3 workouts. If you look carefully you can see a slight decrease in his average heart rate in the 3/27 workout. Scott removed the over check bit (created a happy bridle) and JB may be relaxing more. I hope our friends who attended REPS I at Mohawk are following along. Slowly but surely we are putting into action many of the great ideas Andrew shared with us December 4, 5 & 6. Finally for this post, Lee Watson it’s good to hear from you. I tried to call the mobile number I have on file and left a short voice message. Call me at 570-722-2658 or e-mail to joeg@rcswins.com. Presently we have no representation for our tools and products in Ontario so am selling and servicing out of NE PA. I have two Athletic II resistance carts in stock one used unit at $3895 and a new one at $4595 USD. The used unit may not be here too long so if interested best to act quickly.  | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 66 Registered: 07-2008 |
Joe, If Scott has two heart rate watches, have him use one transmitter and two watches on the same horse. This will tell you if the electrodes are correctly placed or any artifacts are occuring, expecially at racing speeds and during the max heart rate test this week. Also, the Max heart rate test that I gave you went 18 miles per hour for the first two minutes, not 19, then 21 and the 24 needs to be carefully monitored. Good luck | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 393 Registered: 04-2006 |
My prediction on Al's max HR test is that it will be lower now based on the structural development of the heart he has achieved through steady state training. I recognize that Leonie has much more experience regarding Max HR, and feels this biomarker does not change over time. However, cardiac output is made up of two components, Heart Rate and Stroke Volume. Therefore at any given intensity, requiring an equal cardiac output (which is a key determinate of VO2 max, also known as maximum oxygen consumption) the athlete can achieve this by either increasing heart rate or maximizing stroke volume. The heart changes size with training, and with the horse's age...it grows with the horse. The training Al is doing is meant to produce this change. If we are correct with the intensities, we will see a drop in HR for the same speed and same resistance. The only variable then is how fast the horse can move his feet, or how much resistance he can pull at 24 mph. And I would suggest that he will improve on this through his training. If not, the training program needs to be changed. There was a recent test posted on the human thread yesterday. A 113kg football player...about as close to the weight of a horse as you might find in a human "athlete". He was tested on an elliptical trainer. He reached a max HR of only 145. Is this his true max HR? No, it was the highest HR he could attain under the given conditions. What can we do to see if he can push his HR higher? Put him on a track and let him run. Put him on a hill and have him push a wheelbarrow. Ask him to run as fast as he can downhill. Each of these alternatives will change his hemodynamics, and yield a different "max" HR. Which is why we never use "Max" HR to determine training zones, or for any other purpose other than to see how the athlete responds to different stimulus. After Al completes Leonie's HR test, it would be interesting to do one more interval letting Al run all out with no resistance. I would expect a change in hemodynamics and a change in HR. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 180 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, As always a great post with valuable information. Thank you for reinforcement of some fundamental education of heart rate, stroke volume, V02 Max, foot speed and stride length all of which may vary depending on the task, conditions and workout. For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree with you that the so-called max hr in horses may change with age and conditioning. Allentown's max hr test did not happen last Wednesday due to a week of steady rain totaling over 6" of accumulation. Scott did aggressively work him out on Thursday and I hope to post that tonight, hr maxed as I recall at 218. I suspect if he did the full max hr test we would have seen 225, I'm at my son's house for Easter and not able to post any Polar curves or race results from yesterday's race. Allentown came in last. He started like a freight train and was in 3rd with a :28 second first quarter but at the 3/4 pole he was finished. Scott did a great drive and had him very much awake and on the bit at the start. What happened was when Scott pulled the right line to pass the field just before the 3/4 Al did not care to respond and go to the top of which he is capable and rather than speeding up he came back. Scott not anticipating that reaction, just let Al do his thing. Excuse me but Al is a very fit racehorse and there is no reason, other than Al's mind-set, why that should happen. For his next race which will be 2 weeks from yesterday Scott has a few tricks planned. In the mean time, Scott is planning more distance work at LPB-20 but throw in 2 training days going 2 trips at full speed hoping faster than 2 minutes. We need to reset Al's outlook and train again for 1 mile intervals. Looking at the CGM picture Al's cardio-vascular system is well developed I believe. But his psychological system is used to going shorter distances and then backing off for a spell. So let's re-set his mental clock. I'll try to do a post tonight with some graphics but in he mean time one final thought, as you will see Al's work on Thursday was very intense. He may not have had enough time to recover and was just a bit tired for yesterday's race...maybe. Later J | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 181 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, As always a great post with valuable information. Thank you for reinforcement of some fundamental education of heart rate, stroke volume, V02 Max, foot speed and stride length all of which may vary depending on the task, conditions and workout. For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree with you that the so-called max hr in horses may change with age and conditioning. Allentown's max hr test did not happen last Wednesday due to a week of steady rain totaling over 6" of accumulation. Scott did aggressively work him out on Thursday and I hope to post that tonight, hr maxed as I recall at 218. I suspect if he did the full max hr test we would have seen 225, I'm at my son's house for Easter and not able to post any Polar curves or race results from yesterday's race. Allentown came in last. He started like a freight train and was in 3rd with a :28 second first quarter but at the 3/4 pole he was finished. Scott did a great drive and had him very much awake and on the bit at the start. What happened was when Scott pulled the right line to pass the field just before the 3/4 Al did not care to respond and go to the top of which he is capable and rather than speeding up he came back. Scott not anticipating that reaction, just let Al do his thing. Excuse me but Al is a very fit racehorse and there is no reason, other than Al's mind-set, why that should happen. For his next race which will be 2 weeks from yesterday Scott has a few tricks planned. In the mean time, Scott is planning more distance work at LPB-20 but throw in 2 training days going 2 trips at full speed hoping faster than 2 minutes. We need to reset Al's outlook and train again for 1 mile intervals. Looking at the CGM picture Al's cardio-vascular system is well developed I believe. But his psychological system is used to going shorter distances and then backing off for a spell. So let's re-set his mental clock. I'll try to do a post tonight with some graphics but in he mean time one final thought, as you will see Al's work on Thursday was very intense. He may not have had enough time to recover and was just a bit tired for yesterday's race...maybe. Later J | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 182 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew and Leonie, Here's Al's race from Saturday.  As you can clearly see he was very good to about the 3/4 when he went to sleep. When Saturday night, Sunday morning and since he’s eating well with no other negative signs so it’s unlikely he’s sick. Here’s his Thursday workout…very intense. A heavy track at MacK Center and Scott used some resistance too.  Here’s his Polar curve from Saturday’s race.  Scott, Gaylord and I talked about this some and deduce these possibilities for his poor performance late in the race. 1. He did not have enough recovery time from Thursday. 2. The conditioning program we have had him on may not be working so well...mostly short intervals on the hill and the track with some distance work mixed in. 3. Since we started in January, Al has had only two one mile fast training trips and the qualifying race…so virtually no high speed work. We’re planning to race again Saturday April 17. Between then and now distance workouts on 04/06-10 and 12. With high speed 1 Ľ or 2 mile intervals on 04/08 and 14. Also include step tests to start the distance workouts tomorrow and next Monday. May we have your input please. Thank You | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 67 Registered: 07-2008 |
First of all, I think you need to do the Maximum Heart Rate test. As much as I would LIKE to believe that his maximum heart rate has lowered with all the exercise, I don’t believe that at all. According to his race on Saturday, and if the heart rate monitor picked up his racing heart rates accurately, which it may not have, he needs to condition the type II-a fibers and his brain. From the heart rate vs. speed charts it looks to me like he needs to work several continuous long, steady works (not an interval one) for about 1-1/2 to 2 miles at about a 2:20 to a 2:15 minute mile. Going well over a mile should be the starting point; the speed is still up in the air because his true Heart rate max is not yet known. I know that the “new” way of thnking should have nothing to do with heart rate max, that is only if you believe that a horses max heart rate will go down with conditioning, I have not seen any proof of this with Allentown or any other horse to date. You need to know his heart rate max because you need to get close to his max for his training program to progress without injuring him. By the way, how much weight did he loose during the race? Has it been recovered yet? The final prep work was two days before the race and very intense indeed, especially if his max heart rate is not much higher than that. Allentown has been conditioned to go fast for a short way then go slow, then go fast again. He does not remember that he is to continue a long way before slowing down in the race and seems to be happy to slow down rather than to be competitive in a race. | |||||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2008 |
I also wouldn't get carried away with the use of resistance at this stage. In humans, I've seen that practice slow down turnover and running speed if used too much close to competition. I believe it's served it's purpose during base conditioning and now he needs to 'train his brain' at race speeds/distances as Leonie said. Plus, Thursday's work never showed recovery HRs below 160bpm - more than one of those intervals may have been overkill 2 days prior to competition. Man, one could read 40 textbooks and not learn as much as I have learned from this group in the last months, my deepest thanks to all involved for their contributions, especially Joe. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 394 Registered: 04-2006 |
From the Balance Point Racing perspective... Thursday training session: First question...what was the goal of the session from a physiologic point of view? Second question...did you notice the drop in speed despite the same HR intensity? Can you explain the drop in speed despite the same HR? Clearly the same physical stimulus, but a dropping speed, which for us would mean a limitation to one system was reached even in the first interval, and may have been a signal that no further intervals were warranted on that day. (Leonie, this is why we do not use max HR to determine a training speed...as each interval done at the same speed, is not necessarily the same physiologic stimulus). Lenoie makes a good suggestion of taking Allentown to 2 miles at close to max HR, which is in fact a very similar stimulus to the race situation if you look at the Polar curve from the race. So, physiologically this session makes sense. The question will remain as to what is the limiting factor during that session? Looking at the race curve, it appears the dotted line was set at the point of Max HR, which I believe also occurred at the start of the race, with a long "warm-up" a short recovery, and a build up to the starting gate. This is very similar to a modified step test we do in preparation for time trials for human athletes, without the challenge of being in line with a moving starting gate at precisely the right moment. My hats off to the drivers who can manage that feat so effortlessly. After that point, there is a clear drop in Al's HR, until after the race is in fact over, 2:30 minutes later. Now, if he did not start until the 15 minute mark, he had an even more dramatic drop in HR during the "race". So, we need a bit more of a description of the time the race started, and what Al was doing to achieve the HR where the marker was placed. You can use the Polar software to add "lap" markers and add points to the graph after the fact, which will help us with discussion of race physiology, so we are all talking about the same points. Perhaps Scot could go back and add those to the race curve for us. So, in summary, I agree with Bill and with Leonie. The interval workout on Thursday may have fried Al for the race on Saturday, though we don;t know if the problem was neurological, or cardiorespiratory. My thought is it is like a coordination issue, given his slowing speed while maintaining high HR during the interval session. And I think Leonie's advice for the longer session may help Al with this aspect in preparation for the next race, even if we politely disagree on how to determine the speed to do this session. Where Leonie would like to suggest the speed based on a % of "Max HR", I would use the speed and resistance that best simulates appropriate cadence and stride length. Good luck, and I will look forward to hearing the answers to the few questions, and the resulting discussions. | |||||
| Smac Member Username: Smac Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2009 |
I am wondering what happened to SS between speed work? All the talk in Reps 1 was long structural (slow) work. I raced 3 horses this weekend and the only horse that raced well was Eric The Enemy. He was worked with 1/4 mile int. and he didn't slow at any time during the mile. He had slow SS work for his last 2 work outs before he raced. 3 miles on Thursday and 5 miles on Friday with Saturday in the feild and then raced on Sunday. After looking at all of Allentown's workouts from last year before he raced. I think towing him for 30 to 45 minutes with a HR at 160 or so every other day with the off day being a day in the feild would be the best work out for him. I would not even show him a harness untill race day. I will take the happy well rested horse every time. After driving Allentown in a race I would say he seems a little fed up with the whole idea of racing. Had I kept him in a hole (behind another horse) for the entire race he would have been no worse than 3rd. Had he been on the front he might have even won. With that being said, getting Al to the front will be a little tricky because he is a little steppy off the car. I think one bridle change will help more than anything. As far as the thought that 1/4 mile intervals under resistance may be engraving anything neggative into a horse, I would wonder why Per Hendrickson is one of the most successful trainers in harness racing? | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 68 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Andrew, I understand why you don't use heart rate max to determine training speed in humans; does this mean that you don't test for maximum heart rates in humans at all because it has no value? I suggested knowing maximum heart rate in horses for the exercise that they are doing so that the trainers don't try to push the animals too hard in these critical workouts due to causing injury to the animals. This is a way of choosing the work out speed and if heart rate max does not change, as I still believe, then it is a useful marker as well. I do believe that stroke volume changes, however until that is tested nobody knows for certain. Just speculating, I think that the drop in speed with the same heart rate is the act of the central governor (the brain) cautioning him to slow down for whatever reason. If there is nothing wrong with Allentown today and his body weight is recovering or has recovered to pre-race weight, then I could be wrong. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 395 Registered: 04-2006 |
To answer Leonie's question... It is correct, we do not use Max HR to determine training zones. We use a number of different biomarkers (never at max) to determine how the body responds to the training stimulus. These include, HR, Resp Rate, VO2, and now Stroke Volume, cardiac output and peripheral oxygen uptake. It is interesting to note that you believe the stroke volume changes. If you can believe that, and thus the size of the heart, then I would ask you to explain how a larger heart, with nearly double the stroke volume compared to a newborn horse, can have exactly the same maximum rate, with no response to whether the horse is trained, over-trained, or not trained at all? As we have discussed previously, it is very easy to overtrain a horse, and in fact do serious damage without ever reaching close to maximum heart rate, as you pointed out in the case of downhill training. It is with this in mind that one should recognize that using HR alone to determine the best way to train a horse safely is not as simple as it seems. The results this week-end form Allentown still need further examination. Scott, can you explain the Polar curve, and point out at what time the race started, so we can see where the HR was at the gate, when he was running well, and when he was unable to hold the speed? And I agree completely to always bet on the well-rested horse. The idea of doing intervals with Allentown on Thursday certainly uncovered some considerable weakness, which is not to say it was not beneficial. It was simply not beneficial if the goal was to win a race two days later. We have discussed the merits of adding speed work to Al's schedule. My only comments on that is that it needs to be either faster than race pace to push the neurologic system, or longer than race pace (with a focus on cadence if possible) to develop the patterns required to hold fast cadence through the length of the race, which it appears from your Polar curve is over 5 minutes! Hence the potential value for Leonie's suggestion of two mile interval session. What is the total distance covered between the 10 minute mark and 15 minute mark on the Polar curve? You can use the software to make two marks and look at distance travelled, and time to cover that distance, then post it again here. There is often a misunderstanding that FaCT and the concepts we teach at Certification Courses and REPS are in fact saying to only focus on "endurance training". Remember, the idea is to find the weakness, whether it be cardiac, respiratory, muscular, neuro, or psychological, and develop a training plan to overcome the weakness. Scott has identified a possible Psychological problem in Al, and I believe he potentially had a cardiac limitation due to the interval session done on Thursday. Can we test the theory? Absolutely. Before the next race, the focus should be on ensuring adequate recovery. There can still be a workout on Thursday, but it should be kept very short, and could be done VERY FAST, if Al is up for it. But the focus shold be on ensuring whatever session is done on Thursday, that Al is able to recover well by race day. | |||||
| Smac Member Username: Smac Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2009 |
Andrew The HR read out for the race goes from around the 12 minute mark which is when we are going to the gate to around the 14:30 mark which is approx the finish. The readings are bad because very often during the race the belt looses contact with the horse. It will say 200 then the next reading will be zero. Going race speeds I cannot seem to keep the belt in contact with the horse. Joe has sent me a new belt which he has modified so maybe I will get better readings in the future. Scott | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 69 Registered: 07-2008 |
Scott, The only way that I have had luck getting accurate HR readings at racing speed on my thoroughbreds is to not have anything but the HR girth belt on the top of the electrodes, keep the cinch away from the belt. This belt needs to have an elastic billet on each side of the belt and no other stretch in the belt what-so-ever. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 70 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, So does this mean that you never test for maximum heart rate in humans for any other reason? Then how do you use HR as a bio marker, is it used only for recovery? The following pieces of several studies may answer your questions about maximum heart rates in horses. Stroke volume in a 500 kg Thoroughbred is approximately 1.3 liters and can increase by 20-50% during exercise. Cardiac output (CO) is stroke volume (SV) multiplied by heart rate (HR); therefore CO = SV x HR. At rest the cardiac output is approximately 6.6 (25 liters) gallons per minute and increases to an amazing 79 (300 liters) gallons per minute in elite athletes during exercise. A horse’s total blood volume is approximately 10 gallons, representing 10% of its body weight. At rest 35% of the horse’s blood volume is red blood cells, however they can amazingly increase their red blood cell count on demand to 65% of their blood volume during a race, with up to 50% of the total red blood cells stored in the spleen. The horse has a proportionally larger spleen per unit of body mass as compared to other mammals. The red blood cells are void of a nucleus and have the large protein hemoglobin that transports oxygen. The horse’s heart is able to handle the increased viscosity of the blood. During exercise blood is diverted away from internal organs such as the intestines and kidney to working muscles used in motion. VO2 max expressed as milliliters of O2 per kilogram of bodyweight per minute (or second). At rest the horse absorbs 3 milliliters of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute. Maximal rates of oxygen intake vary within breeds and training state, but fit Thoroughbreds have a VO2 max of 160-170 ml./min./kg and elite horses can achieve 200 ml./min./kg. By comparison elite human athletes have a VO2 max of about half or 85 ml./min./kg. Pronghorn antelopes have a VO2 max of 210-310 ml./min./kg. VO2 max is a high indicator of athletic potential, and has been found to be highly correlated with race times in Thoroughbred horses. A horse with a higher VO2 max had faster times (Harkening et al, 1993). The ability of the horse’s muscle mass to consume oxygen far exceeds the ability of the heart and lungs to provide oxygenated blood. Therefore cardiac output is a limiting factor in performance. Conditions that improve cardiac output positively impact VO2 max. Heart mass has been shown to increase with training. This hypertrophy (enlargement) in the heart comes in two ways, a thickening of the heart walls, and an increase in the size of the chambers, especially the left ventricle. Although the effects of training on the heart are not clearly understood, heart mass has been shown to increase up to 33% in 2-year old horses after only 18 weeks of conventional race training (Young, 1999). The increase in heart size results in increased cardiac output. Stroke volume has been shown to increase by 10% in as little as 10 weeks of training (Thomas et al, 1983). Although not yet proved, it is likely that in addition to the strengthening, improved filling capacity of the pumping chambers when the heart is relaxed may contribute to the increases shown in stroke volume. Interestingly, maximal heart rate does not increase with training, and resting heart rates (unlike humans) do not decrease with training. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 183 Registered: 07-2008 |
Excellent input from all and thank you. Here’s some feed back to each of you and an attempt to summarize and support Scott, Allison and their team at MacK Center as they move Allentown to better performance in races. Leonie, Allentown may have an outstanding, well balanced foundation of muscle fiber development. His work since January has combined activities stimulating types I, II-A, II-B and II-C fibers although these muscle fibers may not have been stressed to levels where development is making a significant difference. You refer to “brain”. I think his psychological system is conditioned to go fast for only a short duration then slow down. As you suggest, and Bill P and Andrew’s statements support this too, doing 1 ˝ to 2 mile intervals around a 2:15 to 2:20 pace could help change that mind set. Chances are on a dry track at MacK Center his heart rate will hover about 180bpm but Scott could apply some resistance and push his bpm easily up to 210 or better but not sure that is good to go 2 miles at that high a bpm. We did similar work successfully with R Blake if you recall. We did consecutive 2 mile intervals at 20mph (3 minute mile) keeping his bpm around 180 with 90 seconds of recovery between the intervals and that little trotter was doing 3 of these with ease and looking for more when he was claimed. Allentown is a different horse but somewhere in this area we could find the right mix. As we become more accomplished with step-tests, modified step-tests and understanding more about how lactate data can be used as a bio-marker some of the guess work could be removed. I see no reason not to do a thorough Max HR test with Allentown too. Scott let’s consider doing that on Thursday or better Saturday which will be his normal race day for a while. On Thursday we could do something around 2 minute intervals as outlined above but with recovery periods which were missing from last Thursday’s workout. Bill Pressey, It’s good to hear from you again and to know that you have been following our activities and thank you for the compliment. I think we are on the same “train his brain” page to reset Al’s Central Governor. On resistance and a resistance cart, yes it absolutely has merit for pre-season conditioning but it can be used all the time and anytime by applying varying degrees of resistance to help accommodate varying levels of speed and heart rate. Andrew, The goal of last Thursday’s session was to do some hot Ľ to ˝ mile intervals with Ľ to ˝ mile recovery periods. We wanted to consume glycogen for replenishing up to race time. Three things got in the way: 1. The track was sloppy. 2. Scott applied a bit of resistance. 3. A very rank horse who after 6 days of no work just wanted to go fast. Not getting adequate recovery periods in the workout was probably the killer and not at all Scott’s short coming but rather just the way it came down. I’ve been there, done that and got the tee shirt. The lesson learned here, as you point out, may be to when we do not get what we want early on in the workout either stop and go in, or shift to another focus like steady state for 5 miles or so. As to analyzing what we see in Al’s race Polar curve we must discount what we see as there were problems and momentary loss of connectivity between the belt and the horse…inconsistent readings. I sent Scott a prototype of a set-up using Polar’s new strap and an over-girth with D-rings which position the contacts in front of and more independent from the harness. Some of what you are outlining is still over my head but expect to grasp it eventually. So we agree that 1 ˝ to 2 mile higher speed intervals could be effective to re-set his CG. Scott, Yes it is possible that Al is just going through the motions and has no interest in racing now but I hope that’s not the case and I doubt it. Towing him with another horse is worthy of a try for some steady state work and you have two receivers now to simultaneously monitor two horses…just make sure each transmitter and receiver are shaking hands. Polar has the telemetry technology to do up to 6 horses and perhaps one day we will have that system. As to pushing him to the front at the start, yes he is on the edge of breaking stride (steppy) but after a few stride cycles settles in. Yes also if you stayed setting in the three hole you possibly would have come-in 3rd but that’s hind sight and I think you drove a good race and tipping (pulling the right line to pass on the outside) coming out of the 3rd turn was a good move but Al’s Central Governor supported by conditioned response was telling him to back off. Hey, he is what he is and some horses would just take over at that point and go to the top. That used to be the way he acted but now??? So perhaps next race when it’s time to pass, around the ľ mark, take the whip and stick it up his ass. You are also switching bridles so you can flip to open when you think it’s time to wake up. You make a good point on Per H but we may not have his entire story. Leonie, Regardless of all that is being said about a horse’s maximum heart rate possibly changing over time versus a horse’s max hr not changing we want a new reading on where Al’s MHR is now. Scott and I talked this morning and he is shooting to do a MHR test on Saturday. You bring up a valuable consideration which is weight recovery after workouts and racing. Scott and Allison do not have a scale yet but I think have been using a girth tape and possibly recording weight fluxuations (sp). Scott any word on that? Andrew, I have limited comments on your final post. Your observations are very astute and need to be absorbed with repetitive reading and in-depth consideration. I have printed a copy for studying. The “speed work” faster than race pace you mention is limited on Scott’s track (only a mile track, a ˝ mile straight strip or high speed treadmill will allow that. But the alternative of “longer than race” pace is doable. So Scott needs to keep a careful eye on cadence and coordination during the 1 ˝ to 2 mile intervals at 2:15 to 2:20. He also needs to get appropriate recovery between the reps and possibly 90 seconds of walk to easy jog will do it, if Al cooperates…which he may through repetition. There’s more to say, questions to ask and answers to provide but for now it’s back to you guys. I think Scott’s plan for the remainder of this week and next is: Today a step test of 14, 17, 20, 23 and 26 mph followed by 15 to 30 minutes of steady state LBP-20. Thursday 2 or more 1 ˝ to 2 mile intervals at 2:15 to 2:20 allowing his bpm to go with the flow (we’re guessing 180 to 200 bpm). Saturday taking another shot at a Max HR test…rest Sunday and Monday. Work next Tuesday and Thursday to be determined and race next Saturday 04/17. Of course, weather, horse and human conditions as allowing. Gotta go now and sell some insurance to help pay for this “stuff”. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 71 Registered: 07-2008 |
Joe, You can tell Scott to throw away the girth tape, they are so far off and you cannot read the weight recoveries with those things. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 396 Registered: 04-2006 |
Excellent summary Leonie, and exactly what has been written in human literature for the past 20 years. Nothing surprising there at all. Here is our view. Until now, there has never been a way to truly measure cardiac output in exercising humans, nor in horses. So, the prediction that stroke volume increases by 20-50% is exactly that. It is a prediction based on VO2 data. Remember, VO2=cardiac output x (arterial oxygen sat-venous oxygen sat). And this equation is often used to predict the cardiac output, without understanding the incredible variation between individuals in terms of oxygen extraction at the periphery. The final line is interesting..."max HR does not increase with training". And we would expect it would not. But because of what is discussed in good detail in the rest of the paragraph, we see that max HR drops, as the same cardiac output can be achieved with the larger trained heart. So, once we can figure out how to place a Physioflow on a horse, and get real time data in terms of stroke volume and cardiac output during exercise, then we will accept the fact that in most horses stroke volume increases during exercise, but we should be careful to predict how much and how high. In some athletes, we see an increasing SV throughout a test, well beyond LBP, whereas others show a distinct plateau just before LBP. We believe, in the first case, the LBP is caused either by a respiratory weakness leading to reduced recruitment of STF fibers in the periphery, and a switch to more oxygen independent metabolism, or a weakness in the peripheral system to extract enough oxygen to provide the energy from oxygen dependent pathways. In the second case, there is an obvious cardiac limitation that leads to lactate production. Which indirectly answers your first question...we do not test for Max HR, as it is simple a number that has no use to our athletes. We use HR as a biomarker at every other intensity, including race pace, to help identify the limiting factor to performance. I would argue with the summary statement in your quote that says "the ability of the horse’s muscle mass to consume oxygen far exceeds the ability of the heart and lungs to provide oxygenated blood." My opinion would be that this is the case in horses who are well-trained, and have the ability to use the oxygen in the peripheral muscles. Tests on humans came to the same conclusion for many years, before we were able to look critically at the different limiting factors. So, yes, the cardiopulmonary system MAY be the limiting factor, though it might be something else entirely. And one last thing...Lance Armstrong had one of the highest VO2 max ever recorded (83ml/kg/min). He finished nearly an hour behind the winner in his first attempt at the New York marathon. The winner had a recorded VO2 max of 67ml/kg/min. I can explain why the highest VO2 did not win the race. It is simply a matter that Lance was not nearly as efficient as the winning runner. That is, the winner was much better able to use the available oxygen, and produce more speed with less cardiac output. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 184 Registered: 07-2008 |
An entire post by Leonie is missing. Here it is: Posted by Leonie on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 05:23 am: Andrew, So does this mean that you never test for maximum heart rate in humans for any other reason? Then how do you use HR as a bio marker, is it used only for recovery? The following pieces of several studies may answer your questions about maximum heart rates in horses. Stroke volume in a 500 kg Thoroughbred is approximately 1.3 liters and can increase by 20-50% during exercise. Cardiac output (CO) is stroke volume (SV) multiplied by heart rate (HR); therefore CO = SV x HR. At rest the cardiac output is approximately 6.6 (25 liters) gallons per minute and increases to an amazing 79 (300 liters) gallons per minute in elite athletes during exercise. A horse’s total blood volume is approximately 10 gallons, representing 10% of its body weight. At rest 35% of the horse’s blood volume is red blood cells, however they can amazingly increase their red blood cell count on demand to 65% of their blood volume during a race, with up to 50% of the total red blood cells stored in the spleen. The horse has a proportionally larger spleen per unit of body mass as compared to other mammals. The red blood cells are void of a nucleus and have the large protein hemoglobin that transports oxygen. The horse’s heart is able to handle the increased viscosity of the blood. During exercise blood is diverted away from internal organs such as the intestines and kidney to working muscles used in motion. VO2 max expressed as milliliters of O2 per kilogram of bodyweight per minute (or second). At rest the horse absorbs 3 milliliters of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute. Maximal rates of oxygen intake vary within breeds and training state, but fit Thoroughbreds have a VO2 max of 160-170 ml./min./kg and elite horses can achieve 200 ml./min./kg. By comparison elite human athletes have a VO2 max of about half or 85 ml./min./kg. Pronghorn antelopes have a VO2 max of 210-310 ml./min./kg. VO2 max is a high indicator of athletic potential, and has been found to be highly correlated with race times in Thoroughbred horses. A horse with a higher VO2 max had faster times (Harkening et al, 1993). The ability of the horse’s muscle mass to consume oxygen far exceeds the ability of the heart and lungs to provide oxygenated blood. Therefore cardiac output is a limiting factor in performance. Conditions that improve cardiac output positively impact VO2 max. Heart mass has been shown to increase with training. This hypertrophy (enlargement) in the heart comes in two ways, a thickening of the heart walls, and an increase in the size of the chambers, especially the left ventricle. Although the effects of training on the heart are not clearly understood, heart mass has been shown to increase up to 33% in 2-year old horses after only 18 weeks of conventional race training (Young, 1999). The increase in heart size results in increased cardiac output. Stroke volume has been shown to increase by 10% in as little as 10 weeks of training (Thomas et al, 1983). Although not yet proved, it is likely that in addition to the strengthening, improved filling capacity of the pumping chambers when the heart is relaxed may contribute to the increases shown in stroke volume. Interestingly, maximal heart rate does not increase with training, and resting heart rates (unlike humans) do not decrease with training. How come Leonie's post did not show up in this thread? Short of a couple points if one were to write a Horse Training Bible what you wrote here could be chapter 1. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 72 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hey Joe, I see the entire post I made above your previous one, sort of out of order. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 73 Registered: 07-2008 |
Invigorating discussions and very challenging, thanks Andrew. I know that most equine research was done a long time ago also, but I cannot throw all of it out because of that, I just have to keep an open mind. When my equine sports testing lab is up and running, I am hoping to answer these same questions for myself, at least. Equine sports training is still in the dark ages for the majority of trainers because they don’t study and practice it so not a lot of changes are made in training regimes. The differences between human and horse, other than the deal about the spleen, is not significant. Keep in mind, however, that the horse is still a prey animal, so his need for survival is why his systems work the way they do. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 397 Registered: 04-2006 |
Please don;t get me wrong about the value of old research. Just recognize that the same misconceptions regarding human cardiac physiology are still rampant, based on flawed descriptions from a number of years ago, before the advent of equipment (like the Physioflow) that can actually measure SV and EDV during exercise. It was simply not possible to do this 5 years ago, so any discussions on the topic were based on estimates from VO2 data, not from true measurements during exercise. We are learning a great deal as we go, and certainly do not have all the answers...but more and more questions regarding what I was taught as "truth" in medical school, and what is believed by most physiologists in North America. I believe your approach to questioning and thinking for yourself, as well as a genuine desire to test the ideas, will lead to you being one of the first true equine labs in North America to answer some of these questions. Interesting to think about the horse as "prey". I wonder if human's felt the same way before they developed weapons for hunting and defence? In fact the CGM that Joe makes reference to, believes the same thing, that there is an inherent safety mechanism based on the fact that all animals run for survival. A lion wakes each morning knowing he must outrun the antelope in order to eat. The antelope wakes each morning knowing he must outrun the lion in order to survive. It doesn't matter whether you are a lion or an antelope. When you wake up in the morning, you better be ready to run. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 74 Registered: 07-2008 |
I am certain that humans never thought of themselves as "prey", however, humans still needed to run fast to catch their food. Humans have reasoning powers and that is what separates us from our animal friends and why humans would quickly develop weapons and design strategies for defense and offense. A horse can only think of one thing at a time, they are very simple animals and use conditioned response as their learning power. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 185 Registered: 07-2008 |
Here is Allentown's Polar curve of a step test Tuesday 04/06 and a FacT overlap of 04/06 and 02/14.   In Tuesday's step test Al was very hot and hard to handle. Scott did a great job with the task and was right on with his marks of 14, 17, 20, 23 and 26 miles per hour. The FacT overlap is telling Scott and I that Al was much more efficient in February. Are we seeing signs of over training? Andrew what's your take? We are modifying the plan never-the-less and Al is getting today and tomorrow off with at least 5 hours a day in the paddock. Scott plans to jog him an easy 4 limes on Saturday, off again on Sunday and do another step test on Monday. We expect to enter Al to race next Saturday. Monday may help tell us what to do with workouts before the race. Scott trained JB for the first time and the horse did fine. He maintained a trot throughout the workout on a sloppy track. Scott now has a bench mark and his ideas of how to rig the horse for racing. | |||||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2008 |
Sorry to be off topic, but in the spirit of sharing here is a Polar curve from a stakes winning horse I worked with a while back. This is a 6F work in 1:18 from the gate over the dirt at Churchill:  Note the high peak speed and HR recovery to 120bpm less than 2 min post work. Not a blazing fast time, but was from a gated start. This horse won twice at 1.5 miles both on turf and dirt - by a total of 29 lengths without once being hit with the whip. Also a 36bpm heart rate under tack at the madhouse that is Churchill in the morning, and 62bpm while standing in the gate waiting to breeze. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 398 Registered: 04-2006 |
Excellent...well at least some possible answers to the poor performance last week-end. I would agree with Joe's take on the comparison between Al's two sessions. That is, there is a DEFINITE drop in performance, especially at the low end. In simple terms, this only happens in one of two cases: 1) Undertraining 2) Overtraining I know Scot has been doing great work with Allentown, and so #1 is very unlikely. So, overtraining certainly looks like it could be the cause. Now this can be a very short term problem that can be overcome with a few days of rest. So, the current plan makes excellent sense. Give Al some rest and recheck. If we are correct, the numbers will respond, and we will see dramatic improvement. If the recovery in the next couple of days does not affect the performance line, we may have to reassess the training program. We would have to question whether the training on the hills is actually at low enough intensity to benefit the lower end of Al's curve. And this has been my concern in the past. We were never sure that the hill work was at the "correct" intensity. So, let's hold judgement until we see results from a recovered horse. One last question...Were the two tests done on similar track conditions, with same resistance? | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 186 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, Scott can provide confirmation on both workouts and perhaps more detail. I do know that Scott did not use resistance on either workout. Of course the 01/14 was cold weather on a hard track, the 04/06 was on a dry but maybe still somewhat soft track. On your observations regarding hill work I know Scott has some interesting feelings and observations on that and he may post those although we spoke earlier and decided to talk about that very subject later tonight or tomorrow. Please stay tuned Andy. Bill Pressey, No problem with your subject matter in this thread, but it does prompt an idea that we could consider a Thoroughbred thread. I know you are doing some interesting things in Louisville and at one point our buddies at Polar were considering adopting your protocols as "Best Practices". Good work BP. A question or two to the tech side of things: Were you using an old belt or a new generation strap with the enlarged electrodes? What was your record rate? I presume 1 second. The speed comes from GPS (RS800CX)? It appears you had some contact issues in the first 10 minutes, would you care to comment on that? | |||||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Joe- Was the old belt back then, but I use the newer 'split' belt now with much more success. Record rate is indeed 1sec and I have the RS800CX G3 model. I sure envy you standardbred guys being able to control speed so well - I am having more luck doing so now that I have a client with a tight Polytrack loop and a really nice grass gallop with 2 good hills. I should get some cool gallop readings from a Derby contender that I have access to later this month. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 187 Registered: 07-2008 |
More thoughts on Bpressey's post. He notes the recovery to 120bpm in 2 minutes from a bpm of about 220. That is almost exactly the suggested recovery by Gary Potter. So Bill your un-named example is not in bad fitness and we're just getting started. So answer some questions please: Would you have been able to do any part of your program without a heart monitor? What are your observations and thoughts about the Horse Heart Monitor world in general...what's out there? On a scale of 0 to 100 (100 is the highest) how do you score the RS800CX? Please explain as much as you care to. How is the electrode strap working compared to the last generation electrode belt? Explain please. From 10 minutes on the rider and horse were in sync. Was that you riding? J | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 188 Registered: 07-2008 |
B Final thought for tonight. I'm glad you are getting better results with the new "split belt". Actually I envy you G3 - GPS guys. Setting and re-setting wheel mounted speed sensors is a pain in the standard ass. The tight poly-track loop and hills sounds like a great set-up for some fun and games. I look forward to the time to own and train a few t-breds. We sometime need to hook-up to discuss employing a resistance cart for thoroughbred conditioning. Now there's a Quantum Leap and once we figure it out there is a ton of money to be made. "Money is not everything but it ranks right up there with oxygen." Richard Miller 1990 | |||||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Joe- On no, I don't ride - I just put my HR/GPS on horses in training to evaluate fitness. The best one I've seen is at www.etrakka.com, but very expensive. I talk regularly with David Evans in Australia who literally wrote the book on equine exercise physiology. I have some HR signal issues with the Polar maybe 10% of the time, but the GPS always works very well. With the new belts I can capture data on 25 horses/4 riders during a typical morning with ease. I also get a lot of HRV data, but don't know yet what to do with it. Very interesting to see the Polar graphs on different surfaces, i.e. turf, poly, dirt. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 189 Registered: 07-2008 |
Bill, Good post and thank you. I am aware of the Etrakka systems and yes they are good products. For my money the Polar line gives me what is needed for affordable everyday use and we can expect continued enhancements which will improve connectivity results. I got a call from Ted MacDonnell the other day. Ted is a very successful harness trainer in Canada, a Polar guy and he attended REPS I at Mohawk. He suggested we show our Polar curves in FaCT Forum in miles per hour rather than minutes per mile. It's easy to toggle between the two modes. You must do it in each horse's calendar. When in the calendar click Options in the upper bar. Then open the Sports tab and click Edit. Then in the Speed/Pace field drop down and click mph, OK, OK and you got it. This is another vivid demonstration of the real-time value of using Polar. The software is fantastic and we are just scratching the surface with knowing all we can do. They have a multi-horse telemetry unit that I hope to be using soon. | |||||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 48 Registered: 10-2008 |
Joe- I've used and sold my telemetry option, called a Polar Team2 Equine System. Cost was $5000 I think. Only does HR and only has a range of 100m, so probably still not a great option for SB trainers. Great software however, and can record in real time up to 10 horses on a mechanical walker. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 190 Registered: 07-2008 |
I only have a limited time for now and will post a few visuals for your evaluation: Allentown's Polar Curve today with two step tests in one set. Allentown's FaCT overlap showing both step tests from today and as you see he was much more efficient with 2nd test. I guess the old cripple needs to be warmed up more. Also the second test which is the light blue 041410 workout he was going the wrong way (opposite from the race) on the track. He was much more relaxed.  Also you can see what a few days less work can do. Based on what we see, we could conclude that Al was getting a little sour. The plan now is to just work him easy for 6 to 8 miles LBP-20 on Wednesday and go racing on Saturday. Here's a overlap showing 6 horses, Cancun Time, Jelly Bean, Westridge Willa, Westridge Arlene, Eric The Enemy and this one blows me away, Allentown.   The first 5 are very similar and all the horses including Al have been worked about the same since mid-January. Allentown went north with quite a bit of training under his belt and half a dozen races late in the season. The old man was a head and shoulders above the youngsters I've run out of time for now and gotta pack for a 2 day meeting with State Farm and a 6:00am departure.  | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 399 Registered: 04-2006 |
I would have a slightly different take on the overlaps... let's look at the multiple horse overlap first. Allentown (royal blue line) does appear to hit much higher speeds at lower HR, but this only occurs at the top end. This could be good for racing, but it also shows a concern at the low end. And this is my big concern, as it seems to be a repeatable trend for Al. I would suggest he may have achieved the high end with the recent functional, high speed work and races. But I would also caution that these training/racing sessions have actually caused some damage to the structures he had developed last year. Only time will tell whether the apparent trend of a drop at the low end is because of the first step test done today (resulting in some short term fatigue), or because of a more systemic issue. But something we should watch. In contrast, it appears JB has the best performance at the low end, and may in fact be doing a better job currently than Allentown in developing his structures. Having said that, it is clear JB is lacking top end speed. But one could make the argument that JB shows great potential to respond to some short high speed work over the next few weeks. And one last note to point out for Leonie...is that the horse with the most structural training shows a much lower HR at 26mph than the other horses, which might indicate a larger stroke volume from the training. It is the trend we would have expected given his background. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 191 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, Sorry not to respond to your last post sooner but general biz pressures and two days away got me. I understand what you are offering as does Scott. Today's race will tell us more. He has the 2 hole in the 3rd race and is absolutely competitive in this field. He's had no intense work since his last race other than the double step test on Monday which is not a heavy load. He's eating well and vary alert. As I write this he and Scott are on their way to Scarborough Down for a 4:40 post time. Here's his race line up:  Don't know if this will work but try to click into the attached pdf. If it works you will see the entire card in a format very close to that which you would see in the program. http://www.trackmaster.com/nm/hpl_link/download/nm/TM_WEB/sca0417e.pdf You, Scott and I are very much on the same page regarding JB and Scott will be doing more speed work with 1/4 mile slightly up-hill intervals shooting for faster than what we would expect him to do to help build his coordination on MacK Center's track. Scott will also be taking him to Bangor once a week for some fast mile and 1/4 sets. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 192 Registered: 07-2008 |
It worked. When you click the http link just drag down to the 3rd race. Soon I hope to have a no-cost way you and others can watch our races live or at least a replay. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 193 Registered: 07-2008 |
Here are Allentown's results from Saturday.  A significant improvement from two weeks ago. Scott had the right idea and wanted to take him to the top or at least get away 2nd. A calculated risk. He knew Al can be real steppy at the start or for that matter just about any time in a race but Scott went for it. Right before the gait folded Al broke stride. Scott did a great job and got him settled in a couple of strides, but they got away last and 10 lengths off. Al made up 5 lengths and finished with the field and a 30.1 last quarter. The plan is to enter him for next weekend and again minimize his work allowing more recovery time. The plan is after two days of rest to do a step test on Tuesday coupled with some distance miles at LPB-20, then off Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. If he gets picked, based on his perceived fitness and better performance with more rest and less work and Scott's broader experience in driving him, Al could be kicking some ass...we'll see. Allentown is ready to win some races, Scott believes it, I believe it and Al would love it. The best case then could be that for the next month or so to race him every week. That's not likely, let's first hope that we get in next Saturday even if we need to drop down a class as an alternate. Andrew, if Al races every week with more rest and less training what are your ideas to make him better? Would you like to see his last two race videos? So for the time being our focus may shift to our 3 year olds. Little Our Black Jelly Bean is getting dialed in to start racing most expeditiously. We have another horse to add to our stable; King’s Cavalier is a smooth gaited, fine blooded 3 year old trotting colt. KC’s a big boy and scheduled to arrive at Old Stage Farm from Florida on Tuesday. The potential to get two of two 3 year olds to the track now is not in our favor. Screw the odds, we are making our own destiny and we have work to do. We will have great potential using our tools: Resistance Carts, Horse Heart Monitors, Lactate Analyzers, hopefully soon our own treadmill and a team willing and able to guide the development of our racehorses to their individual greatness. We know and use contemporary protocols. We have an ever-growing foundation of good horsemanship and we believe that for every thing we learn we’ll find out how little we know. We pray for the patience and time to help make positive results for these two young trotters, find the best for Allentown and prepare for more horses. | |||||
| Lordpat Junior Member Username: Lordpat Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2009 |
I would like to get some feedback on this supplement. If you google Dr Carniglia you can come up with the patent. The 7 test horses were all mine. The patent was never used. Dr Carniglia sold the patent to a thorobred owner who used it just on his own horses. he received $1,500,000.00 for the patent. I got paid for testing and was given a two year supply of the suplement and the right to make as much of the supplement that I wanted for my own use. Every horse that I tested it on performed better than without it. One horse was consistently 4 seconds faster with it. He was a greyhound kind of horse and couldnt finish a race unless I loaded him for three days prior. I never had a horse "fade" using this supplement. I believe that the listed ingredients can be improved on with the alph keto gluterate improvements. I did use inosine with the supplement. I also feel msm, which has intra cellula capabilities would enhance the formula. I did have 10 pounds made up last year at a cost of 500 dollars in ordert to test it. I have found no patents for ATP resynthesis that has done the double blind studies that I performed. Hey, you folks are welcome to use the formula, just dont race in Maine. I did a double blind study on this ATP supplement based on a protocol set up by the University of Connecticut which sent me the coded vials for the blood samples. The test lasted a year and resulted in seven racing standardbreds showing an average increase in ATP of 50 percent. It showed in the performance as well. Anywhere between a half second to four seconds on one skinny horse. The formula was sold to a well known thoroughbred owner for $1,500,000. He used it for many years with great success.He had given me a two year supply for my own horses. Here it is for your comments.(the following is my original post on the horse racing site. Jurg commented with a brilliant response but I wanted the Maine Project people to respond as well. ) The following composition of ingredients were developed by me and a marvelous chemist for the purpose of increasing the synthesis of ATP. I tested the resulting formulation on my race horses. The results were dramatic. That was twenty years ago. . I am once again involved in the racing business and would like to again produce this supplement for race horses. I would like to discuss the possibility of adding some additional ingredients that have been refined/developed in the past twenty years that would make the supplement more effecient. The supplement as it is listed below provided greater stamina and speed for all my horses' but if there are ways to improve the formula I would like to discuss the possibilities. The ingredients are: L-glycine 0.6kg L-arginine 2.4 kg D/L methionine 12.0kg Choline chloride 10.1kg Inositol 8.9kg L-aspartic acid 8.9kg L-tryptophan 2.6kg L-phenylalanine 2.1kg L-histidine 2.0kL L-proline 1.5kg D-ribose 8.9kg magnesioum phosphate 7.7kg Total 67.7kg There were fillers added to enhance the feeding process: lactalbumin:yeast culture: dried beet molasses: :Dicalcium phosphate: sodium bicarbonate:vitamin mix: lignan sulphate These fillers came to 996 kg. . I would like to add any reasonable ATP enhancing components based on present day science. I would add MSM and Inosine to the formula in any event . Gaylord Boutilier | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 400 Registered: 04-2006 |
To answer Joes' question about Allentown, with his racing each week-end, and ideas on making him better. From his recent results, I would suggest the racing itself will help him improve IF he is given enough recovery during the week. The key is to ensure any "training" he does in the week does not hinder his recovery from the high intensity race on the week-end. This can either be by doing VERY short hard efforts, or longer easier sessions to support his continued structural development. I would suggest his interval type hill work is likely a bit too high intensity in the week following his race, but also not fast enough to stimulate any increase in race speed. So, I would slow down these intervals, and go longer, or shorten them up and go faster. But in either case, I would use the step tests to ensure he is recovering from the sessions. Go Al go!!! | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 194 Registered: 07-2008 |
Allentown He's in to go again Saturday...we were lucky he got picked and not an AE. Also Eligible horses will race if another horse scratches.  Al did a step test Tuesday and compared to 040710 it was not impressive. Andrew what's your take on this test. We are banging loudly on the door to find ways to best train racehorses employing human methodologies. These step tests are a valuable look at where a horse is using a performance line. We get speed and heart rate data with our Polar CS600 and then record specific marks and chart a fit (performance) line in FaCT software. We then compare results of other test workouts. This gives us another layer of information beyond the usual see, feel and hear. Most trainers won't go here yet but it's not difficult, just takes a bit of time.  Our BlackJellyBean Scott trained him Wednesday in 2:22. Next week with tweaks in his shoeing we hope he'll be close to 2:15. To qualify at Pocono he'll need to be about 2:05 on their 5/8 mile which means a trotter must do :06 or :07 on a half mile track. Scott is starting to like JB and his eager attitude. Other horses in Scott and Allison's stable have more raw talent but Bean is a real classy little trotter. King's Cavalier He is acclimating nicely to Old Stage Farm. Julie and I planned to get him on the track today but were not happy with a few coughs and other signs that prompted taking a look at the airway as he was also coughing a bit before he left Florida. Renny (Shoop VMD) scoped him yesterday to see what we see. If you recall, after 8 months of boarding and some light training, we discovered our first baby Out To Sea, had a paralyzed arytenoid (sp). We could have done a tie back procedure but elected to sell him instead. KC's pharynx(sp) is fine but there's a fair amount of redness in the trachea. Renny's take is not to worry just give him a few days in the field. He's on a light regimen of SMZ (sulfa) and we may scope him again. He's very alert, eating well and his vitals are normal. So now the plan is to start jogging on Monday. He's got the blood to be a successful trotter and as he matures could win us some nice money. Gelding him is still an option but if a "studdy" attitude does not disrupt our operation and his training we'll not go there. We'll know more after Monday and Tuesday with some work and how he reacts to Charlie Getz horses across the road. Stay tuned J | |||||
| Lordpat Junior Member Username: Lordpat Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2009 |
I have recorded every workout of the Maine Project horses since the first day of this exciting venture. Yesterday I was at Scarboro to watch Eric and Cancun time race. I met the track announcer and who also is tht track handicapper. He said " wot the hell is Erich doing" . I said you better pick him at least second. He said I already did off his last race. He had the best last quarter in years! He was stunned. Eric has been racing in the cheapest claiming class in Maine with little to show anybody, but this experiened announcer could not believe the change in Eric. In the race Eric was beaten by a good Flamboro ship in that raced in $4500 claiming ranks and was a big favorite. Eric ran into a horse that died in front of him just after teh half and Eric had to go three wide into the third turn. Anyway, Eric had another "best in Years last quarter and finished second. Eric hadnt rarced in a couple of weeks and would have been a little sharper with a recent race, but he was damn sharp. OK, my point. OH, my horse, Cancun Time, had his best race of his life as well. Finished third in a photo fo place. The Forum folks should review some stuff. The Maine Project trains intensively three days a week, Unique in training protocols. The schedule is "intense/rest/intense/rest/intense/rest/ rest/rest/. That allows for intense interval/resistance with one day rest then two days-72 hours full recorvery for muscle cell rebuilding. Again, my point. The "Forums" suggested changes in this protocol for Allentown and JB have resulted in those horses running at least 6 weeks behind the other Maine Horses. Allentown, at best, has gone sideways/and/or plateaued. JB is six weeks behind all the other 2 and 3 year old fillies. Willa, the 2 year old filly trotter could yank his bridle off. The point is, if you are on a three day intense work out program you had better use the three days. The Allentown an JB protocol is: moderate/rest/easy/rest/ moderate/rest/rest/rest. All the horses in the program use resistance three days a week. The two filly trotters use resistance up hill and do it all on the trot. For some reason the Forum opinion is that up hill with resistance is bad. The other thing is the concept that changing one or two days training regimen will help a horse, i.e., Allentown, race better. A change in training protocol takes six to eight weeks to determine the value of the change. Probably the most useless "training " method ist the "step test" It is ok once a month to set a baseline, but has no value in getting a horse ready to race. With all of this, my records of every work out document what I am saying. I waited until racing started to see with my own eyes how this project is working. It is beyond my dreams. Scott trained two of my fillies this week. Friggning crazy. I felt like I was on speed and double Viagra pills. Never had a hard on watching horses train before, pretty soon I will give up the Viagra. Remember, training is art, science, guess work, experience, and "consistency". The Forum is high on guess work so far and Allentown and JB are way behind the horses following the three day protocol. There is no sense doing three days of conventional easy works or why bother with the Seminar and what was learned there. Again, I have watched and recorded since January and now, the stop watch and actual racing. The "Forum" should watch and record and see how the program proceeds. JB is a good example when a two year old filly troter is so far ahead of him. The 3 year old filly troter, Arlene, trained in 2:13 and was under wraps. I am so grateful for the seminar as it directed Scott and Allison to a new world of scientific traineing methods. You should have another one, but for the Forum people you obviously are wasting it. Facts are facts, and the facts ae in my notebook and in the race results. One last point, Allentown can pace a wuarter in 27 seconds, that equals a mile in 1:48 and he could make a million dollars. So, why all this "cadence and stride length stuff". All he needs is super conditioning. Extending the stride cuts the turn over and a stride too long puts on the brakes so to speak If a horse has 1:48 cadence why even discuss it. I believe Allentown, if following Erics program could be a really successful race horse with his innate speed. I can tell you that none of the "Forums" suggestions have had any value and have put him backwards or, at best, sideways. OK, have at it and tell me if I am wrong, or, tell me the stop watch is wrong. Gaylord, no longer a Viagra User, Boutilier. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 75 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hey Gaylord, I love your enthusiasm and straight up saying what you are seeing, and oh yea, I happen to agree with you also. | |||||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2008 |
I'd love to see anyone who espouses any different training regimes than what is going on here at FACT to provide the same data that Joe and his group are providing - so we can all learn from different points of view. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 401 Registered: 04-2006 |
There is a fair bit of ongoing inconsistency in Al's step test results recently, which likely represents changes in his recovery, rather than true reflections of his fitness. The most recent result shows a drop in top end speed, which certainly should be of concern for those interested in seeing him racing, though the return of his performance at the low end is a good start. My suggestion is to again post what his entire training week looks like with a planned race each Saturday. Whether he races or not, my suggestion is he has 2 days of recovery after his race, with two days of back to back longer, steady state sessions, with the specific focus on sustained HR well below LBP, and NOT interval type sessions that push his HR. Then a rest day, followed by a VERY short and VERY fast session similar to what Leonie had suggested for bone development. If he can do his speed session beside another horse to learn to race and pass other horses at high speed, even better. If the session is short enough, he will be able to race well the following day. If you are worried about his recovery form the short speed session, it can be done on a Thursday for a Saturday race, though I would suggest it be short enough to allow recovery within 24 hours. | |||||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 402 Registered: 04-2006 |
I just had a chance to review Lordpat's summary. I agree that the likely cause of Al's poor results is from some misunderstanding of the primary goals of the resistance training sessions. The goal was NOT to be high intensity, but in fact controlled intensity far below LBP, with some VERY specific speed work just one day each week. It seems that has not been the case, and as we reviewed the HR curves, it was fairly obvious the intensity of the sessions was higher than we had set for a target. So, I thank Lordpat for his great support, and excellent insights, and for potentially helping us get back on track with meeting the goals of the training sessions throughout the week. | |||||
| Leonie Senior Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 76 Registered: 07-2008 |
The short speed session should be done on Thursday for a Sat race with an active rest day for Friday, light jogging maybe 2 miles easy. | |||||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 196 Registered: 07-2008 |
Gaylord There’s no doubt about it, Eric and Cancun Time raced REALLY well on Friday…two well prepared horses and great driving by Scott. I’m very happy for you as you deserve much, much success with all your horses. Like me you have it all on the line. About your April 24 post. Step tests as we are using them are not necessarily a “training method” rather quick and easy snap shots of where the horse is on that day and an indicator of where the horse is longer term. I understand on the human side that often step tests are done even more than once a week and often based on the readings any test determines what the remainder of that workout will be for that session. For example it’s seen that the heart rate to speed is very efficient at the upper end of the scale then some speed work is done, or visa versa. In any event we are not using step tests possibly to any where near tapping their potential. Never-the-less Allentown’s performance line has not improved, it’s gone the other way. He also raced very poorly on Saturday. I hear what you are saying about “consistency” and true the work that Al and JB have not been consistent as have the other horses with the up-hill intervals with resistance. The results with Eric and Cancun are impressive. Please answer two questions for me. 1. Would you please scan and send the notes you have been keeping on all of the horses? 2. How do you determine that Al and JB are “6 weeks” behind the other horses? Thank You Joe |
cancun time lbp 02/12/10