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     Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1343 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here an article on HRV and RH to enjoy " Heart Size and Heart Rate Variability of the Top Earning Racehorse in Japan, T. M. Opera O Kazuhiro KAMIYA1), Hajime OHMURA2), Daisuke ETO3), Kazutaka MUKAI3), Shigeto USHIYA1), Atsushi HIRAGA2) and Sadao YOKOTA1) 1) Racehorse Clinic, Ritto Training Center, Japan Racing Association 2) Equine Science Division, Hidaka Training and Research Center, Japan Racing Association 3) Equine Research Institute, Japan Racing Association T. M. Opera O is considered as one of the greatest racehorses in the history of horseracing in Japan. Only a very few data is available on circulatory function of elite Thoroughbred racehorses. Recently, we obtained data on circulatory parameters of T. M. Opera O. The left ventricular mass of T. M. Opera O, as measured on an echocardiogram, was 4.60 kg. The resting heart rate (HR) of T. M. Opera O was 25 beat/min. The low-frequency and high-frequency power, as determined by an analysis of HR variability, were 13,900 and 5.963 ms2, respectively, which were considerably higher than those of the other racehorses. These results suggest that a large heart, formed by genetic factors and training, markedly enhanced the parasympathetic nervous activity and reduced the resting HR of T. M. Opera O. The data we obtained from T. M. Opera O is invaluable for understanding the physical fitness of elite Thoroughbreds and for further developing their athletic performance. Key words: athletic performance, heart rate variability, left ventricular mass | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1345 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo Leonie. Can you show us on here a printout from a Max HR test with teh beat to beat readings ( or better R to R readings ) you can get from the CS600 HR polar you use. So we see the beat to beat situation on .001 seconds. If we have a set on the flat HR line with equal beat to beat times in humans we know there is a failure of the HR testing and it is not a Max. It is never so that we ahave in a human a HR on .001 sec. regular so we easy can determine real HR readings to equipment failures. What is the R to R ( beat to beat readinsg in your hiorses at the flat line area ? | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1346 Registered: 04-2006 |
I did some revieving on our data and some emails to fiends in the sport world. Here the result. There is only the Hosand system out for the moment , who can give live HR info in water sports ( including horses ) There is a Suntoo model , who can memorize HR in swimmers, but not live like Hosand ) and it has to be downloaded after the workout. The HR of horses in the water, as Leonie mentioned , where they used a Polar watch is combined with this info from Polar itself : " IMPORTANT - SWIMMING - The CS600 comes with the new W.I.N.D chest transmitter. It works at 2.4GHz, This frequency will NOT transmit under water. Although the unit will not be damaged, it CANNOT be used to give an accurate heart rate while swimming." So the readinsg this research group got of immediatly 230 HR was , the same as we get in humans : 1 Either no reading or a 230 and crazy reading . If printed out you will have a long flat line. This is not ( in humans in water ) the maximal HR. it is simply a non function of the equipment in water ) 2. Now here another problem in humans and HR testing in Lab or even sometimes in the field. Running or cycling under a power line or along an electrical rail road will interfer with the HR info and if printing this out at home you will have a flat HR "curve" do to non function of the equipment. If you are in humans not sure print out the R - R ( or beat by beat info and you can see, whether it was a malfunction ort a real Max. HR situation. Interesting is , that in situations like that in humans the HR numbers are arround 224 to 236 out of what ever reason, and in humans you know that is simply wrong . Now here the interesting situation . If using high powered treadmills in human testing we often see the same intereference, due to electro -magnetic fields from the high powered treadmill. Here again check beat to beat to be sure it was the max HR and not an intereference. Again if you have a 45 year old person and you have a HR of 233 you know that is somewhat fishy. So the question I had to Leonie was to print here a beat to beat printout from a max HR test in a horse so we can see teh difference in a horse, which is able to go up to 240 and a human which can't go there ( with some exceptions of specific heart problems ). So in human testing we have to watch some "equipment problem as well. Juerg | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1348 Registered: 04-2006 |
No Remo, this problem with HR and interference is not sucked out of our brain , it is officially as well recogniced on the Polar website . Here teh paragraph and the different equipment , which can ( not must ) cause some problems in the readout: " Sources of electromagnetic signals can cause erratic and faulty heart rate readings. Such sources include other heart rate monitors, televisions, computers, cars, electric motors, bike computers, mobile phones, antennas, high voltage power lines, electric/invisible fences and certain motor driven exercise equipment. The problem can usually be resolved by relocating the receiver. Static build up in certain clothing can also cause interference. See more on document:" and here some addition from teh same site : "high voltage power lines (both above and below ground) and some exercise equipment" That's why besides relocating the receiver and check for ongoing heart signals we check in funny readings always the beat to beat signals to see reality versus interference. Summary : We try to avoid sucking out ideas of our small brains. We rather tend to do first some reseaerch to not invent the wheel and than it still does not turn. Took me many years to learn that and I still work on it . Cheers Juerg | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 47 Registered: 07-2008 |
Just a thought on Polar. From my perspective what we have presently with the wear link belt is useable and there is a new model coming that is better I am told. Leonie has some very strong feelings that the Polar setup is not so good. I have tested resting heart rate with a Polar CS600 running simultaneously with an ECG. They were beat per beat alike. The Polar becomes more of a problem at higher speeds and after a 100 or so workouts on a belt the connectivity diminishes. For some reason, from time to time the readings go hay-wire but when that happens it's obvious and just scratch that workout. For our lower speed work which is where we spend most of the time anyway (with and without resistance) I get by with the Polar CS600. The cart mounted speed sensor is always right on and have not tried the GPS unit. We should have the new belt in a month or so...we'll see. | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 34 Registered: 09-2008 |
Can you clarify if the issues with the all in one link belts being discussed are the same as the transmitters with the separate electrodes. Seems like there are two problems at work, no? Single belt repeatability at hard work, and electrical interference of any HR monitor. I would have guessed at the ones with separate "electrodes" would be more immune to noise... http://www.horsebeat.co.uk/polar_equine_ rs800_rs800g3_heart_monitor.html vs http://www.horsebeat.co.uk/polar_equine_ horse_t52h_transmitter.html | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2008 |
Gallop136- My work is with the RS800G3 wearlink belt. Their are two electrodes in there, but they are enclosed in some kind of silver patch, not like the T52. The signal problems I have are only when the rider's leg blocks the transmitter brick from 'seeing' the watch on the rider's wrist. With a jock sized rider, my readings have been good. I will get to sample the new belt next week when Polar comes to town for a show, I believe it's going to be more like the T51-52 series. In summary, out on the track I get no electrical interference, just physical blocking from a taller than average rider, a problem the T51/52 series would correct, theoretically. I can imagine in a lab setting with a treadmill and other stuff there are many more issues, and I think the older two electrode setup is more common. Joe, for one, has tried both on the harness track. Of course, I do all of my HR work after the fact, I believe Joe and Leonie do so 'on the fly'. | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1349 Registered: 04-2006 |
If you combine the Hosand system with the polar system , than the blocking problem is gone and you even can sent the signals over a distance of 100 - 150 m ( 300 - 400 ft ) to the labtop. So you have much more info , can stroe it already as you go on the computer ( no later download as you pass by and can recall. This will be the way we do the testing for FaCT in the water with swimmers. This week I have 2 people from UBC and we will do extensive testing in the water again and in endmarch / beginning of april we have some intro in California for a set of Dr. and coaches with all the now available combinations. The wear link belt in humans has a "cloth " type of material like the BIO harness and it would be fun to see, whether the Bioharness with the much bigger paddings on humans may work nice on horses. The bioharness is a belt version which gives much more info than just HR . It allows us with the latest version to see skin temperature change, respiration rate , body position in comparison to upright standing , any type of g fiorces in all 3 dimensions, so we can see for example on a speedskater, whether he changes position and posture during the part of racing where he may slow down. As so often the own countries associations don't take notice and we have much better responses from the other side of the fence. It is in human coachi9ng the same. Everybody will defend his turf and "cooks" on so called secret stuff, when in fact we all just cook with simple water only . Always big talks in conventions of overlapping and sharing information , but reality shows, that there are no sharing froums out there, nor do we see many coaches open enough to critically look their own cook book and check potential weaknesses. One of the reasons why FaCT has no clear protocol is simply , becasue we are not perfect and we staedy learn and try to adjust and if I look into my latest power point I have ready for a big California presentation and compare it with last years ideas I offered in a Seattle presentation , than I see why we have no protocol , as many ideas are evolvimg and the test has to be adjusted. So don't get too confused, if you find some differences and yes take a critical look , as adjustments not always are improvement , and new is not always better than old . And more answers create often even more questions. Cheers Juerg | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 35 Registered: 09-2008 |
The accelerometer info is something I've been wanting to see tied to the horse gps speed and hr info, as it could pump out stride frequency in horses. Speed change vs stride and stride length inferences seem like an interesting point of discussion as it is exactly within your ability to "hold on" that horse races are won and lost. That stride frequency=breathing frequency is also quite clearly relevant. If a horse shortens stride because of breathing needs, seeing when this happens might seem to tie together into the "Big Picture" nicely..... Bill, have you looked into this? I think the polar link system has a shoe based accelerometer that I thought could be adapted somehow to get stride frequency on the same graph. (or maybe this is the garmin...) Joe, have you played with this idea yet? Karsten | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1350 Registered: 04-2006 |
Gallop the connection of stride length and respiratory frequency in horses is connected? Would make lots of sense, as we see in runners clear pictures ( if not respiratory trained ) on how the respiratory system can actually overtake the running pattern. There is a big study done about 20 years back on over 5000 people. As people run relaxed they breath in in 3 or 4 steps in and 3 or 4 steps out. As they go faster but still o2 dependent ( flat running only ) tehy go to a system of 2 steps in and 2 steps out. If they run above LBP ( resp have lac in the system they tend to go 1 step in and 1 step out. The demand of the O2 resp. release of CO2 seems to dictate the running /respiratory pattern. There are many different ideas, on how to "overrule " this ideas by learning to separate the respirsatory system from the mechanical motion. Potentially impossible in horses, but what I can't fiond in horse training is a stimmuul;ation of respiratory muscles ( diaphram ) in low intensity workouts in horses, as that would be very easy to do. As well we see ( nostrils strip ) which make it easier to breath , but may be from an exercise point of view counterprodcutive but from a race point of view will show some benefits. I think , as more I read the fact , that in race horses in high intensity workouts and races, there is blood coming from the lungs, that the demand on the respiratory system is incredible high and that there is a potential hugh ability to improve this section with proper training. Just a thought from a human perspective. Juerg | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 36 Registered: 09-2008 |
Respiratory system is clearly one of the weakest links. A horse must breath on every stride at a gallop. Almost all horses in North America run on furosemide (Salix/lasix). That tells you something right there. Some trainers perform myectomy's, tie backs and all sorts of other throat surgeries on a new horse (just in case-prevetative medicine!). There is a halter type device that can be used to keep respiratory systems from displacing/blocking (Cornell collar, not allowed in lots of places because you can misapply it). You can often hear these types of horses "roar" past you at the track. There are also factors like neurological disease which can paralyze various flaps and block airways(Bill can tell us about that in KY) This has some trainers automatically put all their horses on certain meds (Marquis and equivalents) There are many medical issues and procedures now identified that affects breathing ability. Of course the one most often overlooked is appropriate training! Welcome to horseracing! Some people who train endurance horses have used restriction devices, but I would guess they get abandoned quickly due to the issues on simple restriction vs spriotiger type calibrated training. I have not heard of anyone using them. Ivers told the story of being in Dubai with the Sheiks endurance horses and seeing some of them wearing "Buckets" with holes in them. Some trainers do alot of swimming which will change the breathing patterns and I gather is a good lung workout ("never swim a known bleeder", I've heard). Whether it is a workout that stimulates useful adaptive responses for a race at the target distance is another matter. As one owner once remarked. "The staff told me he was the best swimmer at the farm, unfortunately I could never find a swim race to enter him in." Karsten | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 37 Registered: 09-2008 |
Re: Juerg's Gallop: the connection of stride length and respiratory frequency in horses is connected? Stride rate = breathing rate "R-R" type stride rate as a function of distance and time (speed) gets you feet per breath. Feets per breath would change and that curve would be the interesting one. (Just variation of stride length would be interesting too in that you could directly see how a horse goes about moving (long slow strides, short fast stride)) If you have a respiratory system built for short fast breaths (if such a thing is possible), but your legs are built for larger slower strides, you have conflict. If you have giant lungs, but your throat is blocked and you can't fill them in the fast turnover rate your legs would rather run at, you will suffer....The above are not proven facts just my opinions as to why tying stride rate to distance and time (speed) and to speed/time changes (deceleration) would be an interesting area for review. Joe, how does a trotter breath? Karsten | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1352 Registered: 04-2006 |
Now tghis is a very interesting stduy. It fits nicely in our believe, that metabolic exchange rate ( or other words for the could be VO2 use ) could be closely linked to the respiratory work. The respiratory work can be done in humans either as a high frequency low TV or low frequncy hig TV work . At least thats what we often ebelibve. In fact the classical thinking is actually high respiratory frequency and uncontrolled TV. From many tests we do we see, that at least in humans the TV has a very strong influence on VO2 , resp on FeO2 levels. Sue Hopkins a LA reseaercher on respiratory ideas made this spring a very nice presentation in Banff, where she explained the "bloody pulmonary situation " and how it is in humans not the reason of a drop in SpO2 but the myth of it. She much stronger tended to the idea ( wow what a surprise for us ) that the problem my be in the exchange area of O2 ?CO2 and blood and air. So a very fast respirartory rate with a very small TV in combination with a very high HR and a very small SV may in fact reduce the ability of gas exchange in the exchange area. If you go back in the FaCT forum , than you will find , that we think since many years , that this is the potential reason of teh SpO2 drop ( besides other reasons. With our small Fit Mate VO2 tester we can show live very nicely , how FeO2 can be altered by changing respiratory frequency , as well as by changeing TV. The very interesting part is , that we can change TV by switching in humans from mouth to nose breathing or visa versa. By testing horse on a treadmill with a similar idea ( Hope leonie can print some VO2 max test out for us they do ( see the picture ) so we can see the values like RF ( respiratory frequency , HR , VE and FeO2 and based on this numbers we can see TV and if you now connect HR RF /TV /VE with lacatet you are not just finding the LBP but as well some trend nformation on the respiratory work. This in combination with LBP will add a new dimension in the intensity zoning with horses not based on a mathematical formula , but based on real individual horse biomarkers. If you add Gallops idea of stride frequency to that than we have a very nice tool to see when ( time and intensitie wise ) the horse starts to get into trouble to maintain the speed we like to have. This is the key element of aby training : Where is the "overlaod" and what do I overload. Once I have a clue on who is overloaded ( system ) , when it is overloaded ) drop of performance , than I can find out the recovery time for that overloaded system and can drammatically optimize recovery and workload and not only don't waist time , but gain very important recovery time to make the whole anabolic phase working and know exactly when the nutritional part has to kick in . Nutrtion with the two goals. At least in the FaCT element of Nutrition by Mary Ann Kelly from NOC california: Functional nutrition and structural nutrition. Where the functional nutrition has a very strong chrono nutritional element. Pre race or trainng nutrition. During training and long race nutrition and post trainnig nutrition . with the rule 30 W 15 . and than the actual feeding with the structural idea behind. A very interesting concept , based on logic and experience and potentially what Leonie may do as well. So I assume when Leonie talks about nutritional re plenishment, that she has the datas collected during the VO2 testing and again it would be nice to have a printout on the kcal used during the different intensities and teh RMR of a race horse. Thansk in advance for sharing all this info and I will show some numbers collected as well from human racers and how we use the info for respiratory evaluation and assessing potential limitation in humans due to respiratory limitation. Cheers Juerg | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1353 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here the study: " Titre du document / Document title Stride length and respiratory tidal volume in exercising thoroughbred horses Auteur(s) / Author(s) BUTLER P. J. (1) ; WOAKES A. J. (1) ; ANDERSON L. S. ; ROBERTS C. A. ; MARLIN D. J. ; Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s) (1) Univ. Birmingham, school biological sci., Birmingham West Midlands B15 2TT, ROYAUME-UNI Résumé / Abstract The purpose of this study was to test the hypothesis that locomotor-respiratory coupling in horses may provide a basis for the appropriate matching of lung ventilation to running speed and metabolic power. This was achieved by determining the effect on respiratory frequency and tidal volume in thoroughbred horses of changing running speed while maintaining a constant metabolic demand by also varying the incline of the treadmill. This procedure was performed at three different speeds at two different levels of metabolic rate. It appears that, in response to metabolic demands which are not directly related to speed, horses can control tidal volume independently of stride length but they do not vary «respiratory» frequency independently of stride frequency | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1354 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here another nice case study: The effects of locomotor-respiratory coupling on the pattern of breathing in horses. Lafortuna, C L Reinach, E Saibene, F Location: http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerend er.fcgi?artid=1158850 1. To investigate the effect of locomotor activity on the pattern of breathing in quadrupeds, ventilatory response was studied in four healthy horses during horizontal and inclined (7%) treadmill exercise at different velocities (1.4-6.9 m s(-1)) and during chemical stimulation with a rebreathing method. Stride frequency (f(s)) and locomotor-respiratory coupling (LRC) were also simultaneously determined by means of video recordings synchronized with respiratory events. 2. Tidal volume (V(T)) was positively correlated with pulmonary ventilation (V(E)) but significantly different linear regression equations were found between the experimental conditions (P < 0.0001), since the chemical hyperventilation was mainly due to increases in V(T), whereas the major contribution to exercise hyperpnoea came from changes in respiratory frequency (f(R)). 3. The average f(R) at each exercise level was not significantly different from f(S), although there was not always a tight 1:1 LRC. At constant speeds, f(S) was independent of the treadmill slope and hence the greater V(E) during inclined exercise was due to increased V(T). 4. At any ventilatory level, the differences in breathing patterns between locomotion and rebreathing or locomotion at different slopes derived from different set points of the inspiratory off-switch mechanism. 5. The percentage of single breaths entrained with locomotor rhythm rose progressively and significantly with treadmill speed (P < 0.0001) up to a 1:1 LRC and was significantly affected by treadmill slope (P < 0.001). 6. A LRC of 1:1 was systematically observed at canter (10 out of 10 trials) and sometimes at trot (5 out of 14) and it entailed (i) a 4- to 5-fold reduction in both V(T) and f(R) variability, and (ii) a gait-specific phase locking of inspiratory onset during the locomotor cycle. 7. It is concluded that different patterns of breathing are employed during locomotion and rebreathing due to the interference between locomotor and respiratory functions, which may play a role in the optimization and control of exercise ventilation in horses. What is for me interesting to see, that they not seem to see a connection of the ECGM and the potetial tredn of lactate due to change in respiratory pattern adn respiratory work. The so called metaboreflex ( Dempsey ) in human well as well be in horses, and the trend we see in the baove studies would strongly suggest this as well in horses. Summary : If in a race horse the respiratory system is the limiting factor, the metaboreflex ( controlled by the ECGM ) may kick in as in humans and we have teh same reaction as in humans , which is called "breathless legs" where the strifdelength is shortened and the respiration rate is going up. This without the ability to mainatin the TV and as a result we have a vaso constriction and the easy to explain change form prior mainly oxygen dependent energy supply to oxygen independent with the ongoing disussion on what kills the muscle contraction. One of the 2 theories is H+ and decoupling of Ca++ on the Mg- with therefor a problem of creating actually ATP. This will stop the muscle from the risk of dropping ATP below a certain level, where it would end as rigor mortise , which would make avery poor endsprint in any athlete. Cheers and have a nice evening . | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 48 Registered: 07-2008 |
Bpressey “I will get to sample the new belt next week when Polar comes to town for a show, I believe it's going to be more like the T51-52 series. Joe, for one, has tried both on the harness track.” Bill, You may be correct on the new generation but it will probably also involve a new transmitter. The belt with the fabric electrodes vs the old separate plastic wired electrodes is preferred. Let’s see what we get. “Of course, I do all of my HR work after the fact, I believe Joe and Leonie do so on the fly” Bill, Heart rate work after the fact is almost like kissing your sister. Gallop136 “That stride frequency=breathing frequency is also quite clearly relevant. If a horse shortens stride because of breathing needs, seeing when this happens might seem to tie together into the "Big Picture" nicely. Joe, have you played with this idea yet?” Karsten, No! Juerg: “I think , as more I read the fact , that in race horses in high intensity workouts and races, there is blood coming from the lungs, that the demand on the respiratory system is incredible high and that there is a potential hugh ability to improve this section with proper training. Just a thought from a human perspective”. Juerg, Wow! Gallop 136: Stride rate = breathing rate. Stride rate as a function of distance and time (speed) gets you feet per breath. Feet per breath would change and that curve would be the interesting one. (Just variation of stride length would be interesting too in that you could directly see how a horse goes about moving (long slow strides, short fast stride). If you have a respiratory system built for short fast breaths (if such a thing is possible), but your legs are built for larger slower strides, you have conflict. If you have giant lungs, but your throat is blocked and you can't fill them in the fast turnover rate your legs would rather run at, you will suffer....The above are not proven facts just my opinions as to why tying stride rate to distance and time (speed) and to speed/time changes (deceleration) would be an interesting area for review. Juerg: Now that’s a very interesting study. OK, here’s a plan: Today I had a brief conversation with Karyn Malinowski, a friend who is on the staff at Rutgers University in New Jersey. She is also a harness owner, trainer and driver. One of her associates heads up the equine exercise physiology department at RU. We met a month or so ago and pledged to work together. I shared the details of today’s conversation with Andrew. He immediately fired back, “Joe, let’s do the first Course I at Rutgers. They have a treadmill, virtually every testing tool, are close to many harness and thoroughbred training centers and bring credibility. Rutgers is also about equidistance between Ontario and Kentucky. Now I know why Andy’s mom calls him Sun…because he’s so bright! I’ll call Karyn early in the week to follow-up. J P.S. How will Ed Bowan of the Jockey Club Foundation react to this opportunity? $$$$$$? | |||
| Leonie Intermediate Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 18 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hello again, My experience with the heart rate monitor belts has been the lack of solid connection. My treadmill can have some interference also, however we have been able to get accurate readings, consistently for some time now. The Televet 100 has no interference problems at all and will do beat for beat heart rates and is Bluetooth technology, as opposed to Polar that will average the beats per minute over something like 5 second intervals. This will make the heart rate look normal to the untrained eye, yet with the combination of bad electrode placement, the saddle and cinch moving too much on the horse, there will be a lot of interference under tack. Also, I have not been able to EVER get a good reading at racing speeds. This makes it very difficult to know your maximum heart rate while on the racetrack, as you all know, every time that you have to abort the workout, is another 3 to 7 days added on to the training before you can repeat that work. The belts that have the electrodes molded into them are especially bad. Horses are very different from one another and the wired electrodes can be place right between the muscles where there is no interference. My HR belt will hold the electrodes very tight against the horse where the hair will not interfere either. I use high density foam that is shaped to pushing in between a muscle group and the surcingle has elastic billets so that the surcingle can be tightened without moving the electrodes around the girth of the horse. Unfortunately, my surcingle won’t work under tack. Hi Karsten, You must know that ALL horses bleed at certain levels, some will only bleed into their bronchia, while others will bleed profusely out of their nostrils or just into the upper airway. It has been my experience that no amount of training will make the bleeding go away totally. Can we help it by proper training of the airway, I believe so, but only somewhat. I used to think that I could have a horse stop bleeding or prevent bleeding with proper training. Lasix or Furosomide will not stop bleeding, in fact it does almost nothing for the horse in the race, however, it does do something for the recovery. Upper airway disorders are quite common. By the way Juerg, the horse’s upper airway looks exactly like our own upper airway. We have examined hundreds of horses on my treadmill over the years and because or treadmill will go beyond racing speeds, the veterinarians can find abnormalities that they have not seen before. If a young horse has a partial paralysis of the arytenoids, as he grows older it will become worse. A tie back is the most effective resolve but it causes other problems as the airway cannot close properly to have food pass by. These horses are susceptible to lung infections. “Prosthetic laryngoplasty can stabilize the affected side of the larynx during inspiration and prevent dynamic collapse of the airway during exercise. Laryngeal ventriculectomy may improve airflow and reduce the “roaring” sound during exercise. Prosthetic laryngoplasty is commonly done in racing horses and is the only technique that satisfactorily reduces the impedance to inspiratory flow. Postoperative complications include chronic cough, chronic aspiration of feed, implant failure, and implant infection. Athletic performance will improve after surgery; however, horses are unlikely to develop their predicted performance potential.”Quoted from the Merck Veterinary Manual I believe that the dorsal displacement of the soft pallet is trainable. I have had horses doing intervals and when I begin with that part of my program, some horses will displace their pallet, however, by the time I am into the intervals for a month or so, they stop displacing, interesting stuff. Swimming is a way to improve the lungs in a horse as they breathe voluntarily in the water. Should not swim them more than once per week, however, as the muscles that are developed in swimming are never used in racing and you pointed out. A horse will shorten his stride when he is either out of energy or distracted, I have not seen a horse shorten his stride because of breathing needs other than they will flat stop if they have an upper airway problem. Hi Juerg, I have not been able to make the bleeding go away in horses that are aerobically fit, and anaerobically fit as well. I believe that it is a pressure difference between the pulmonary and the respiratory at the Alveoli level of the lungs. The following paragraph is an example of the most that I have ever done with one of my horses, under the guidance of the University of Iowa Football Coach and the horse’s Owner. (I don’t do this with any horse anymore, too much aerobic, not enough anaerobic, this was a cool experience though. Mon, Wed, Fri, gallop at a 3 minute mile,(20 miles per hour) for 9 miles steady state. On Tue and Thu we would do 12 x one quarter mile intervals at speeds of 13 seconds per furlong (1/8 of a mile). On Sat we would gallop 13 miles at 3:30 minute miles and Sun we would gallop 15 miles at 3:30 minute miles. All the above was done under tack, by me, on the race track, not the treadmill. This horse still bled in the bronchioles. The BAL’s found the cells in his lungs, he never bled into the trachea or nostrils, if we had not included him in the nasal strip study, I would have never known and would have believed my earlier theory that the lungs are trainable. So, if you have any thoughts about training through exercise, please clue me in as this is a problem with ALL race horses. Horses breathe involuntarily when racing. When the rear feet hit the ground their diaphragm bellows down as the lungs suck air into them and when the front feet hit the ground, the diaphragm pushes the air out of the lungs. However, they also breathe voluntarily. I have had my quarter horses take two breaths during one stride, in a race. “The lungs are expanded with the help of the diaphragm, a muscular sheet of tissue which contracts away from the thoracic cavity, thereby decreasing the pressure and pulling air into the lungs. When fully expanded, the lungs can reach to the 16th rib of the horse” wikipedia.org When we have our new treadmill in place and our V02 analyzer here, I am going to do a lot of testing we all should benefit from that. I am not quite set up yet, we are in the process of finishing our treadmill room, but I have 11 horses in training all ready. When we figured out the energy expenditure of a race horse, we had to extrapolate from the human mid distance runners, they closely relate to a miler and worked the math and came up with our own formula’s and tested them until we got the one day weight recovery when we did heavy anaerobic training. Like I mentioned, our performance testing lab is not finished yet, it is under construction at the moment. I can’t wait to do all this testing during my training program. By the way, I will have my own treadmill go two degrees downhill and 8 degrees uphill. Juerg, do you think that 2 degrees is enough to get training results?
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| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1358 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo Leonie , great info and very interesting. Short some feeedback on Polar and average HR. The Horse , resp. bike model is doing as well beat by beat ( R to R ) and you can print them out as you suggest in your monitor. Can you give us on here a printout from a full step test beat by beat from your monitor, with all the HRV times on it as we have from the CS600. Will be nice to see the numbers. Inhuman we think that 0 % or flat treadmill is already somewhat downhill running so we take normally 1 or 1.5 % incline as a rule of thumb to count for wind resistance. So 2 % downhill running in a human treadmill would be just great, as it is not too steep so people still would be able to run without too much lean back ( eccentric run due to too hard heel strike. I have no clue, how a horse will run down the hill, but I assume it is more a wuateinon of the speed you choose than the degrees downhill , as long it is not too steep. Yes it will be very nice to see the VO2 results from your new lab and I can sent you some dta ( excel sheets ) we developped for human running and biking, as we are not interested on VO2 max at all , but on information concerning the RF,VE, FeO2 and so on and can see, what kind of workouts change this informations, As with the maximal HR we dont; thing that in human VO2 Max is of any big help in finding optimal intensity zones. VO2 max is , as perhaps Max, HR in horses more a kind of a gentic profiling , as a big VO2 max may have some advantage for endurance athletes. In middle distance runners it may be already of very little if any values, as I saw world calss middle distance runners ( 800 m ) with very high , as well as very low VO2 max. 75 and 55 ) but they were running both the same time and where both top runners with 1.45 - 1.46 over 800 m. So it will be intersting to see, how the max HR and the VO2 are connected in horses and I envy you for all the nice toys you will have son. Great work and yes , it is fun to do all that stuff and ideas. Cheers Juerg | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 49 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Leonie, Your response to earlier questions are beautifully prepared and presented. I know you did extensive work on your post. You are one very smart and giving person. Thank you. Of course you and I have talked often about the present Polar belt approach with the CS600 and the RS800. From the every day horse trainer’s perspective their system is still the best game in town although needs development. Yes at higher speeds the potential for loss of connectivity increases and you sight a max hr test as being one area where there could be a problem. If knowing a horse’s max is important, and I’m beginning to perceive it’s not as important as we formerly believed, we have performed with your input a very effective max hr test with a resistance cart where the horse goes no faster than 24 miles per hour. The CS600 is very accurate at 24mph. Your demands for pin-point accuracy are admirable but truly not necessary to effectively use the Polar tool. You said it in your post, “Unfortunately, my surcingle won’t work under tack”, and of course the same applies to harness so what’s your point? In having to scrap a particular workout focus because all of a sudden the readings begin to go off, which actually is not too often, I just fall back to slower work and invariably the system settles…not the end of he world and I still get a quality workout. If the problem continues again, and again, I just throw the old belt in the trash and spend another $50 bucks on a new belt. If I get 100 sessions at 50 cents a session I’m happy. Marc-Andre and I spoke this morning and he’s come up with a modification for his purposes using the old plastic electrodes and other software some of which he has created. He is re-inventing the wheel for his deal and for him it’s a good feel. Kick ass Marc Andre. Let’s face reality as you and Marc are special; researchers, purists and pioneers. Presently the vast majority “Joe the Trainers” won’t even consider a heart monitor under any circumstances. All the “stuff” we’ve pumped out in www.rcswins.com and some quality information although now needing rewrites in deed, is getting a very small readership. One day, should we live so long, the fundamental products of Racehorse Conditioning Systems may become “state of the art”. In the mean time, if I’m to get any return on the late-in-life investment I’ve made in the business of both training our own horses and trying to sell ideas to other trainers, the KISS formula is absolutely essential. Polar ain’t perfect, but it will do a decent job. A question for you Leonie. You said, “When we figured out the energy expenditure of a race horse, we had to extrapolate from the human mid distance runners, they closely relate to a miler and worked the math and came up with our own formula’s and tested them until we got the one day weight recovery when we did heavy anaerobic training. A few years ago you onfidentially shared your nutrition formulas with me and as you know we have had some successes. My question is specific to this part, ‘they closely relate to a miler’. How did you come to the conclusion of the “miler” comparison? Considering the time, would not a one half mile (800 meters) be a better comparison? Hi Juerg, Yes with Polar’s RR we get a beat per beat read which is great. Although I rarely look at the work in that mode, it’s there if I want a closer evaluation. Here’s a suggestion and maybe I’m the only one who needs the help, but your many abbreviations often such as “RF,VE, FeO2 and so on” are easy for you but difficult for me. I did a Google and only FeO2 got me close. One VE definition I got was Voodoo Extreme which is exactly what we don’t want. This is not Voodoo is it? We need to make it easier for the uninformed reader. Should we start a Glossary Thread? Explaining such things as STF, FTF, RF and VE would be a good start Slow Twitch Fibers and Fast Twitch Fibers with STF and FTF? What do you say about that? Thank You J | |||
| Leonie Intermediate Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 19 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Joe, Knowing a horse’s maximum heart rate may not mean anything to you, but from a clients business perspective for choosing which horses should be trained or just passed by, maximum heart rate plays a huge roll. If a horse cannot reach 230 beats per minute or above, as their max, then I will cull it from my training program. I don’t believe that a person can obtain an accurate maximum heart rate while testing on the racetrack with a rider on board. I have never owned a surcingle for a heart rate monitor that has worked as well as the one that I produced years ago for the treadmill, which won’t work under tack so that was my point. When a trainer is setting up for a race with a training program that is scheduled backwards from the chosen race, there should be no mistakes or mishaps, like the heart rate monitor was not working right that day. Scrapping a work can be very costly, better not to depend on equipment that is lacking in reliability. | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 50 Registered: 07-2008 |
Good Morning Leonie, Regarding horse heart monitors: On one end of the spectrum we have a tool that uses a belt to hold electrodes tightly against the horse’s body, allows positioning of the electrodes to accommodate, to some degree, the uniqueness of each horse and when positioned correctly is very accurate and consistent. The system has proprietary software, intended for use with a treadmill and does not work in the field under saddle or harness. On the other end we have the Polar units that take only seconds to put on the horse, use woven-in precious metals electrodes, are easy to maintain and position on the horse, are equally accurate but occasionally lose connectivity through wear or movement. The software and connectivity to the computer is user friendly and provides tons of data for the trainer if they elect to study it. The systems will work on any horse in the field, in the stable, on the track or from the trailer when traveling. In between there are other systems (Garmin, Etrakka etc.) all of which have nice features but also many shortfalls. Of course you and I know the frustration and angry feelings when in preparation for a race we get sub-par performance from the heart monitor. When that happens, and it's rare, I then fall back, protect the horse, wing it and hope for the best. It is not a perfect world but for now my money is on Polar. Over the last few years I have made many suggestions to our friends at Polar and hope with this new belt generation we will see improvements. Our challenge/opportunity is to keep this great dialogue flowing and exploring better ways to condition our horses. There is great potential with our efforts. Again please Leonie and anyone else, what are your thoughts on comparing the mile horse race to the human mile or half mile foot race. Thank You J | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 52 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hello, anyone out there? If we are going to compare a one mile horse race to a human foot race, what human foot race most closely relates to the horse race? I used to think that the closest comparison was a one mile sprint bicycle race considering the distance. As Corey Cornacchio (he's a tri-athlete) of Polar pointed out the problem in the bike race comparison is it does not consider the feet hitting the ground. He believed the 800 meter foot race was the closest considering the time element of about 2 minutes or less. That make sense to me too. This could be an important point as we further discuss human training ideas for horses. What do you think? | |||
| Leonie Intermediate Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Joe, Horses compare closest with the human mid-distance runner | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 53 Registered: 07-2008 |
Thanks Le, OK so we agree it's the middle distance runner. In human racing middle distance is mostly the half mile (800 meters) or mile (1600). Maybe I'm too concerned with a too small point, considering only one response to my question and I don't want to saw sawdust but let's not give up just yet. Check out http://www.faqs.org/sports-science/Pl-Sa /Running-Middle-Distance-Events.html. For sure the standardbred or thoroughbred one mile (8 furlongs) is a blend of endurance and speed. This article talks some about balance, posture, stability and the relaxation. http://www.oztrack.com/devmd.htm So to Juerg, Andrew, Bill and Kevin, please answer this question. Would you train a human athlete differently if competing for only half mile or mile competitors? If so how? Thank You J P.S. We're still trying down a date for Course I for horses. Late June is better for Rutgers and Andrew is confirming his schedule. Stay tuned. | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1366 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo Joe, To just give a very short answer to your question : No, I would no now , and we never did in the past ( La Olympics) How would we do that. That's more a question on a athelet to athlete base , as individual strenght will decide what we would do ( physiological, menatl , and social points ) There is no cook book with human athletes, there is one person at a time. | |||
| Bpressey Senior Member Username: Bpressey Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Joe- For my part, differences between training an 800m and 1600m athlete, mainly would be the distance of the intervals. For instance, an IT session for an 800m guy might be 3x600m, while a miler might go 3x1200m. Plus work in the weight room would be quite different also. I know of one elite level 800m runner who never trains further than 600m with most all sessions at faster than race pace. But I am FAR from an expert on this, my specialty is training basketball players to jump higher. | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 38 Registered: 09-2008 |
There are a few good books on middle distance training, and there are a couple of really good discussion forums on the net that have trainers participating (NCAA and national/international level middle distance runners). The workouts and methods are so opposite compared to what horse trainers are using that it takes some time to figure out what's going on. I will send you some links privately and some other info for your enjoyment. Clearly, the staple of middle distance running is the interval workout. There are few general perspectives that can be summed up as long to short (distance/aerobic base), short to long (sprint base), and the obvious proper mixture of every available stimulous as required (which is a general statement meaning that high level middle distance runners have custom workouts based on their strengths and needs). In general though there is a lot of race paced, faster than race pace and just sub pace work used. This, for whatever reason has not translated so well to horses... Karsten | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 39 Registered: 09-2008 |
Here's a good example of Hicham El Guerrouj's training from about 10 years ago. http://run-down.com/guests/mv_el_guerrou j.php Karsten | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 40 Registered: 09-2008 |
Better Training for Distance Runners (Paperback) by David E. Martin (Author), Peter Coe (Author) This is one of the good books about middle distance training, though the title says distance. Seb Coe training is discussed. Seb held WR's at 800m until Kipketer (I think) There are debates about the training approach, because other elite 800m men go at it differently, but I've found this book as an excellent reference, just to get my head around the approach, and then it makes me able to give some context to the other discussions and books you can find around. Also there's a book by Rob Lyden called Distance Running which I like. Rob was actually on Iver's forum for a while and looked into training of the horse, though I haven't heard anything from him recently. I think he works at Nike or did... Karsten | |||
| Leonie Advanced Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 21 Registered: 07-2008 |
Better training for distance runners is an excellent book. The similaraties that we found between middle distance runners and horses is that the energy expenditure is almost identical between the two for their racing distances and intensities. We worked it out using "lean body mass" math and extrapolated it to horses and were able to get the same results from human to horses. The work outs are definately different. There is no formula that will work across the board. The energy expenditure for horses in racing and race training has never been studied by any research organization that I know of, to date. | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 41 Registered: 09-2008 |
What I always think is funny is that energy expenditure has been very thoroughly studied by pace handicappers but not as rigorously by trainers themselves.('cappers use various techniques for extrapolating future race performance from past performances to win more money than the next guy). The energy expenditure they use is not as "scientific" as people might like, but it definitely takes race shape, fatigue curves, wind, and those types of things into consideration. I subscribe to a few handicapping forums for this express purpose and if you dig into it, one finds lots of intriguing info. One of the big things that pops up is track varients and how influential they are. Basically, pure time based performances of horses are so inconsistent, that the only real way to try and align them is to modify the race times based on other information. This is particular to TBs I think as they seem to be notoriously inconsistent for various reasons. I will say though that students of "intensive training for TBs" do say that these types of trained horses are way more consistent than conventionally trained horses. SBs definitely seem more consistent as a group. When running interval type works at 1/2 distance, most trainers seem to be able to predict racing times based on the time of the last rep of the set, etc. I have not seen many people try and integrate pacing and training into a cohesive whole (well, except for Ivers of course)so this also is an area ripe for further exploration. If all you really do though is 3-4-5F at full speed once every 10 days, there's not much opportunity for race modelling, working on various weaknesses, etc. Thanks for the feedback, Leonie. Very interesting. Karsten | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 54 Registered: 07-2008 |
So the “Beat Goes On” and it looks like we were not sawing saw dust at all. To summarize then: Juerg says, “There is no cookie cutter….it is one athlete at a time.” Bill Pressey says to adjust the training intervals where each is a bit shorter that the event, but do at least three of them. He mentions lifting weights. Here’s a racehorse trivia question: ‘What is the best tool you can think of so horses can lift weights?’ The answer is “A resistance cart”! Karsten Hennze suggests reading books. Karsten I like mystery novels and Michael Connely is my present favorite. He puts me to sleep almost every night. As to reading horse exercise physiology books, are there Cliff Notes? I’m a not a good reader and I’m also lazy. In Karsten's “private links” (copy write protected) the article considers that a 400 meter foot race comparison has merit. I hadn’t considered the quarter mile but based on Karsten’s text the 400 meter may be the most demanding of all human foot races. That’s interesting. Leonie mirrors Juerg’s ‘No Cookie Cutter’ approach. She also says, “The energy expenditure for horses in racing and race training has never been studied by any research organization that I know of, to date”. Maybe that’s a topic for Ed Bowan and the Grayson Jockey Club Foundation. Karsten concludes these posts by writing, “I have not seen many people try and integrate pacing and training into a cohesive whole, except for Tom Ivers, so this also is an area ripe for further exploration. If all you really do though is 3-4-5 furlongs at full speed once every 10 days, there's not much opportunity for race modeling". Mr Bowman, are you reading this stuff? After three voice mails, Ed returned my calls yesterday. He’s been very busy preparing for his annual board meeting. He likes what we are discussing and suggests we submit a grant application to Grayson. He likes our alliance with Rutgers U but advises we need to connect with a thoroughbred track or training center near New Brunswick NJ too. We need to narrow topics and include if not focus on t-breds. He believes a tele-con would be good to thrash out a plan and would be happy to set up conference call from his office. He also will register in FaCT Forum and monitor our posts. Allentown is our newest Forum thread. Until Andy gets back from NZ we’re just trying to log a lot of miles with Allie at about 148 beats per minute (Al’s perceived present LBP-20). Due single digit temperature we'll not work again today. We need another horse or two and working on that. Yesterday one of my harness customers said, “Show me some real time results with all your resistance conditioning, heart monitoring and lactate analyzing ideas comparing to humans and I’ll get excited. Gary also said, “I will not be spending money for your Courses and then use my horses as guinea pigs. Show me how your ideas move your horses up in class. I want no theoretical bull shit. Show me some results. That sounds like a challenge. We need another horse or two in our program and am looking for them. Gary wants to see a new path and the bright lights of a new big city. As we concluded our conversation he agreed to ‘stay tuned’. Back to Ed's concern for Grayson. Let's use this Forum to "Narrow the Topics" for our first RCS/FaCT racehorse scientific study. What do we want to study? J | |||
| Jimgregory New member Username: Jimgregory Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2009 |
Hi all, I am new to the forum. Great stuff so far! My experiences have been with standardbreds and as Karsten knows I was involved with Tom Ivers scientific studies. I have done many different workouts with variable distances and resting times. Hillwork, sprints and even resistance training ( thank you Joe ). I am trying to get caught up on all the topics here. Most of my experience is when the foot hits the track, alot of theories gets put to work. The biggest factor in any racehorse training programme I have implemented is balance. Every horse needs the stamina building developmental workouts, then they need to be moving into higher speed stamina workouts then eventually the neuromuscular speedwork. Not enough in one area could give poor results, too much in another area could give poor results as well. On the length of workout needed at speed and intervals I have personally done some workouts like: warm up, then 2x 1/2 mile all out speed work would equal 1 mile race time. Interesting that another workout I tried was: warm up, then 1x3/4 all out, slow to jog for 2 minutes, then an all out 1x 1/4 sprint. This would also give the same result for the mile. Of course the horse would have a proper warm up / down. I have done many 5x1/2 and 6x1/2 workouts as well and have a feel for this style of training. Any thoughts on this type of workout? Why would the end result be the same? Thank you. James | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1369 Registered: 04-2006 |
Jim , thanks for your nice input. Again I have no clue about horses, so I like to give some comments on your part above : " The biggest part is BALANCE " and I assume balance as in : not using just one single idea , like speed , or only interval, or only endurance , and so on. This is the key in human coaching . Balance. The key to balance is the ability to find out, who or what is the weakest link in the athlete . The weakest link is the most important factor , why we may see no further improvement. Example: If you have a coordination limitation as a cyclist of 100 RPM than that may be the reason why in a sprint , where all other cyclists are in the same gear you can't win, as by 100 RPM your power contribution reaches a limit and the guy with less power but the ability to go 140 RPM will just simply bike away from you. So the key for us is to have a test assessment ( FaCT CLR , which allows us to find the weakest link in that Balance we try to achieve. Let's put it different. Traditionally in human testing we have : Maximal VO2 testing Maximal Lactate testing Maximal Wattage testing Maximal heart rate testing. Now this is great to find out the maximal performance in each of the above tests. But that's really is all . There is no real value in any of this tests as to be able to use this information to find out the weakest link. I like to use the Maximal heart rate test in humans as an example. ( It is as Leonie tells us different in horses) So here the view from a human point of view. A maximal Heart rate test in a human is just fun, but that's all. It does not tell anything at all about the performance potential in this person. A person with a maximal HR of 180 may be a much faster middle distance runner , than a person with 210 HR. Using maximal HR as a way of developing intensity zones is even more off as it is based on a mathematical formula. The guy with 210 HR may have his LBP by 145. The person with 180 HR may have his LBP by 158. The guy with 210 HR may have his STF zone by 115 and the guy with 180 HR may have his STF zone by 145. It all depends on genetics and training. So where is the problem: We take an athlete and make a maximal test ( the best maximal test is actually a race, as you not just see the maximal information on the above parameters, but as well you see , whether this maximal performance is a winner. Problem here: We have no clue, why and what systems may have stopped him from being even faster or from the other side: What system actually contributed how much to that maximal performance. I like to show you a PP we will use this spring in the camps in California for coaches . I show you the initial idea from a human point of view , but than I like to switch to the horse point of view.  Now no explanation here just think and try to figure out what I like to tell the coaches or what I will tell the coaches . Now here the "horse version:  In short . If you have a winner or maximal performance, you have no clue , what part of the body ( which system ) contributed how much to that performance. So you don't know the body as a team. So we test to find out what "team member" was contributing how much. So let's say we believe the Maximal HR was one of the team members ( cardiac team ) who was important in the overall performance in that special event. So the next step is in a human : If he was beating only 180 x / min , but he was better ( faster ) than the guy who was beating 210 / min ) how come. Was the cardio system really important.? Is the maximal HR so important , and if yes, why did he still lost the race. ? | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1370 Registered: 04-2006 |
Okay here the answer:  The heart itself is a team as well. HR is a small part of teh overall performance from the heart , as it has many other team members, who decide the overall performance. In fact a very high heart rate may be in fact the weak team member, as it may reduce the ability of the stroke volume in humans , due to the high heart rate and therefor for the shortened filling time. An athlete with a bigger heart has often a lower maximal heart rate. But he can compensate with a bigger stroke volume. Example : Person with a resting HR of 70 and a SV of 70 mlhas about a 5 L/Min cardiac output. An athlete with a Resting heart rate of 40 will have to reach his needed resting cardiac output of 5 L a Stroke volume 125 ML. And we see that that is the case. Now in horses we learned that the Stroke volume is fixed and can't be changed. So yes , the only way as it seems to have a higher cardiac output is a higher heart rate. CO = SV x HR. Now in humans coaches believe the same ( some at least ) In humans that is simply not true. The stroke volume will change over time with training and as well the maximal heart rate. Now even if this would be not the case the high maximal heart rate can have many ( not need to ) disadvantages. You can see on the PP what other "team player " come into the game. So if in case of a high maximal heart rate , but a lack of preload ( dehydration, muscle tension situation , respiratory situation )and preload meaning the EDV the contraction ability is different and the Ejection fraction can change, or even the LVET. So LVET may stay high due to lack of elasticity and therefor a high LVET x a high heart rate = very high CCT and a lack of O2 for the working leg muscles. Summary : If you follow the ideas on the PP you will see, that we need to be able to assess the team players and once we found the weakest player we can than assess the weakness in this player itself. What sound like a lot of theorie is shown up with the pictures as a real situation we offer with FaCT. We assess the team member heart we assess the team member lung we assess the team member digestive system and so on and can on the one side improve the individual team member and than bring him back to the full team so he is optimally integrated in the overall performance. Maximal test just simply don't do that. Best example : Lance Armstrong and Paul Tergat a few years back at the New York Marathon. Both had a Maximal VO2 of 85. The small difference was only close to 1 hour difference in the race time ?????? Summary : Sorry Leonie but I just simply don't believe. that the horse is the only species, where the heart not would react to different stressors and that Stroke volume is fixed and maximal heart rate is fixed. I just simply believe ( and that's not because we have celebration this year of Darwin )that in any living system any stressor will trigger a functional reaction , which if properly applied with rest and stressors end up as a structural change ( adapatation ) based on the survival idea of any living creature. Tendons in horses can get stronger as in humans if training stresors are properly adjusted. Bone density can change, respiratory muscles can get stronger and so on. My personal feeling just simply is, that as we have ion human coaches we have in horse coaches traditional ideas and personal experience and this is a dangereous combination which often stops progress ( including me ). As nobody has the ideas to change the guy with the best genetic athletes will win , not because of his training , but because of the genetic. So if we do nothing with horses the stroke volume will not change and yes potentially the horses with the higher HR will be more likely winners, as the HR is the only functional reaction , which can increase cardiac output. If we now have 2 horse with the same genetic makeup , than the horse with the smarter coach can win, as he can add to the great genetics some ( in limits) structural changes to his horse and that will make the difference. Stupid example. Twins plan to race a 10 km bike race in 3 month. They never biked before, So one decides to just roll on a bike down the hill every day. So after a few times crashing he finally can ride the bike ( balance learned) Both did no other workout so they are still identical in physical performance. As in contrast to the stock market you would know here where you will put the money on ???? So good luck with thinking through this messy brain. Juerg | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 55 Registered: 07-2008 |
James Welcome! It’s great to have another standardbred guy on board. I was beginning to get a nervous disorder surrounded by all the t-breders…wink. Man, we could probably talk for hours sharing ideas and experiences. Maybe we’ll have the opportunity to do that as we move forward. In the mean time here are some thoughts on your post. So you’ve used a resistance cart? When, what, how, how often and do you have one now? It’s truly a wonderful tool in the hands of a smart and sensitive trainer. It can save a lot of time, allow more time with horses when otherwise they'd be stuck in the barn. A resistance cart can help develop the horses systems quite holistically. Babies to aged horses alike can benefit with resistance work. Once those in the thoroughbred world figure it out and get past some early obstacles and hang-ups we can do much to help make sounder and happier t-bred racehorses. I think it’s going to happen. You mention Tom Ivers, he was a character for sure but many if not most of his studies were not scientific. Back in 03 I hired Tom as a consultant for two horses, we worked together for about 5 months ($2000) and I learned a lot. Then he fired me. Can you believe that, I hired him and he fired me? He said, “Joe, I told you in the beginning if I stopped having fun with you we were finished”. Tom was quite ill then and probably knew his days were numbered. He had little patience for anyone who would not always do it his way, especially a green trainer like me. I got a taste of interval training however. Tom for sure was a very smart person and ahead of that time. He was pretty set in his ways and only a few could go toe to toe with him. I used his Advanced Glycogen Loader, although at that time not sure why. Through Tom I met Leonie Seesing and quickly we went to a much higher level with exercise lines, nutrition and glycogen depletion/loading. Since 2004 Le and I have played with myriad workouts including steady state and intervals. For a number of reasons we have yet to reach the top end of the potential we wanted to go with our horses. Leonie is a member of my racehorse owning Old Stage Racing LLC and a share holder in Racehorse Conditioning Systems Inc. She is a very interesting and smart horse person. Although she has been perfecting her ideas for decades she remains very open to learning new things and willing to question some of her older beliefs and standards. Thankfully Leonie is part of our small but powerful group in FaCT Forum and now enters FaCT Canada with Juerg, Herb and Andrew. Recognizing a need to identify specific reference points in training each indivdual horse, rather than a cookie cutter 200 beats per minute anaerobic magic number approach, I wanted to use lactate analysis to help determine a truer bio-mark for specific muscle fiber development. Thankfully last summer I met Juerg and started to learn about lactate and how to measure it. Rather than wasting a lot of time with the old 2mmol/4mmol Cardiovascular Anaerobic Model we accelerated to the more contemporary Lactate Balance Point (LBP) and a Central Governor Model. On the steady state end, slow twitch-structural development (aerobic/oxygen dependent), we have pushed the envelope to go 10, 12 and 15 miles in single workouts (I like mostly 10 miles) keeping beats per minute somewhat less than the LBP in a workout. The horse loves the work and the distance. On the interval end, fast twitch-functional development (anaerobic/oxygen independent), since 2004 we have tried many different interval lengths and recovery periods. Doing quarters, halves, one mile and two mile intervals we have experienced varying degrees of success. With some of our work we have used resistance and some free-wheeling. Just because my track is a 1/3 mile flat, hard and tight track I do mostly thirds. The belief is that, unlike Ivers, shorter recoveries are where it’s at. Depending on the horse, perceived level of fitness and functional goals we have done 30, 45, 60 and 90 second recoveries. Now in working with Andy Sellers MD of FaCT Education and one horse (Allentown) we are setting up to address some higher levels of neuromuscular development. We will do short intervals with each going a bit faster than where we think he can be at his quarter mile race pace. Maybe we'll let Allentown go with these short spurts until he says stop. The weather here has been very difficult for us to get on the track track this winter.. Mostly frigid temps have held us back and I want one of Leonie’s Equigym Horse Exercisers. So the last 6 weeks there has been little work. I could have been doing more slow speed stuff with our resistance cart (we have studded tires) but at 64 I did not handle the cold so well. We’ll do better next winter as I plan to be in better physical condition. With the guys at FaCT we are really digging in to find correlations beteen human and horse training methods. This is hot stuff James. Please tell us more about you. I gather you’re from around Toronto? Where do you train and is it full time or part time? How many horses presently (trotters and pacers)? How many years in the biz? Have you ever used a horse heart monitor? If you want to talk I’m available 7 days a week between 6a to 10p eastern at 570-722-2658. Quick final thoughts for now. Today with Allentown I wanted 7 miles at about 15 mph with an average beats per minute about 135. Since he was very relaxed and his working heart rate was very low I applied 50 bar of resistance for most of the workout and we got the job done. My feeling on heart monitoring is that if we don’t use the tool we just as well could stay in the barn. The only way to focus on specific muscle fiber development is in knowing beats per minute while the horse is working. You must also download the workouts in a computer and spend a few minutes per horse per day to analyze the curves and data. It’s easy, fun and a new frontier. The stuff we are addressing in our forum is absolutely 21st Century but elementary. Picture a huge iceberg and believe that what we presently see is just the tip. Jim, I’m committed in our respective race horse worlds and enterprises, that with time (perhaps sooner than later) others will want to know what we’re doing and how. Today Karsten communicated, “Better coaches use tools such as a stop watch, along with their eyes, ears and hands and will out perform non-coach guys in white lab coats all day long." She further stated, "The unique role in technology for horses is that it can be used to bridge the gap created by a horse not giving complete feedback on how they feel. These tools can be used too in endurance horse training". She further stated, "These tools may have more of a place in race horse training than coaching human athletes. It's up to us to explore that potential. There are no easy answers." So Jim, here’s our team motto, “If it is to be, it’s up to me”. J | |||
| Jimgregory New member Username: Jimgregory Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2009 |
Jeurg, Great information, thank you for the reply. Balance is key for sure. Joe, I really like the resistance training and it makes them strong for sure, it does need to be in a balanced training system. I did the workouts as you walked me through them but my horse lost some speed in the process. I see Allentown has lost some speed as well.I feel on my horse that the muscles were too strong like a muscle bound weightlifter, or perhaps re shaping the fibers. I truly tried to overcome this by sprinting and sprinting and got some speed back. Finally in the fall we tried to do resistance walking and had better results. I have studied some Swedish trainers and wonder why they do alot of walking with resistance, I could not see the point of it at the time. I see results in walking and now am wondering why. Is resistance at speed the culprit? On this horse it seems to be in my opinion. What works is real and I have been able to manufacture speed with interval speedwork. Tom Ivers has worked with me for 5 to 6 years before passing and his method was just a handful of workouts that would generally work on most horses. What I took from Tom was pushing the envelope and manipulating distances, rest/ recovery times, repititions etc. And that all the intervals you do you look for the weaknesses and design workouts to strengthen those weaknesses. I have alot to learn for sure and that's why we are here. I do have a hr monitor (polar) and like using it and will learn much more in doing so. I am a stop watch guy and this is a good way to develop horses. Balance is the key. James. | |||
| Leonie Advanced Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 22 Registered: 07-2008 |
Hi Juerg, Great lesson on balance and testing evaluations for improving performance. I too believe that you have to find the weakest link and work on the weakness to make it stronger for the balance of the athlete. It is no different in horses. In my previous posts I said that maximum heart does not change, or I should better say, I have never seen it change in many years of training and testing the same horses, however, I have never tested stroke volume and do believe that it changes. Stroke volume should increase because living, exercised tissue will increase in strength and durability. The heart becomes stronger pumping, the veins and arteries become larger and their walls stronger. A friend of mine always calls that as having "big hoses". I keep wondering if the heart rate stays the same because of nerve or impulse caps? don't know how to express that one. I will continue testing the maximal heart rate theory, as I always try to disprove my own theories. What other methods of testing can I use? Changing training programs has not done it, maybe there is another method that would change the maximum heart rate of a horse. When we get our Televet 100, which is a ECG machine, perhaps that will allow for further testing. | |||
| Gallop136 Senior Member Username: Gallop136 Post Number: 43 Registered: 09-2008 |
Hey Joe only got one problem with what you wrote (smile) Joe wrote:Today Karsten communicated, ....She further stated, You're gonna have to break it to my wife that I'm a she.... And here I thought my goatee beard was a great disguise. Don't worry about it my good man, as I get that all the time..... Thought I'd better set the record straight though in case anyone was expecting me to show up at Rutgers in the summer with a more girlish figure! Good Racing, Karsten | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1372 Registered: 04-2006 |
Leonnie. thanks for your feedback. There is one thought to your "( and my believe) that SV will change in horses. If SV changes it is doing that out of different reasons : 1. Becasue teh heart is getting "bigger " as a real volume increase: So it is actually EDV which is increasing and therefor the pre load which will in a balanced trained heart so that the EF % will be the same in rest. But under work EF % will go up . With this there will be a change in LVET ( at least in humans ) and with this the actual TIME in ability to fill will change. So in a higher heart rate the time for the now new volume will be to short in a very high heart rate and it would make no snese for the heart to be stronmger and having the ability to move nmore blood , when it is restricted by timing of the heart frequency. As a consequence of a healthy heart the maximal heart rate will drop. In athletes whith too much intervall and too high intensity workouts and the lack of a proper left and right ventricular developpment we hae that situation , where the heart volume is bigger but not tension in it and we have a big resting blood volume in the heart becasue of a low EF % and they are not able to prforme well, as there is a lot of low O2 level blood in their left ventricle, as some of the "used blood from the coroonary system will go into the left ventricle and mix with the fully saturated O2 blood coming from the lungs. This is the "negative " sport heart and often after a carrier can lead to some cardiac arrythmia. Yes the EKG you have is a big step to see potential changes But yes lot's of questions we have and no answers to it . Cheers Juerg | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 56 Registered: 07-2008 |
James I agree that a balanced work program is imperative. The only speed work Allentown has had over the last 2 years is when he raced. In the last 3 years every workout is saved in his Polar calendar. Starting in October 08, when Andrew and I teamed up, we determined a Lactate Balance Point of 168. With that information we had been doing long miles at LBP less 20 (148) and seeing positive oxygen dependent muscle development Andy introduced a simple step test that involves, after a mile or so warm up (the step test in itself is a good warm up) we do five 2/3 mile steps of about 14, 16, 18, 20 and 22/24 miles per hour (on my little flat, hard and tight track 26 mph [2:20] is maximum speed). At the end of each step I push the red button on the Polar CS600 receiver (watch) and mark beats per minute. We intend to get to a point where that test will give me information on what work we will do for that day. But usually I just then did another 4 or 5 miles at 148 bpm. I record the information in FaCT software showing a fit-line. I can then overlay other workouts and compare the lines. I can see the heart rates and at these slow speeds. Lower heart rate at the same speed is a measure of development and in these instances structural involving slow twitch fibers - endurance - oxygen dependent – red cell/mitochondria. Just for shits and giggles I drove him in a qualifier in December at Monticello. Not a remarkable time of 2:07 but with a sloppy track, a 190 pound amateur driver, a 50 to 70 pound overweight horse there was a ton of horse left. Since day one here at my little farm and with the 8 or so horses I’ve worked we have done virtually no speed work. That’s the missing link. After his race on December 10 the plan was to go to a good track once a week and do some high speed intervals to work the fast twitch-oxygen independent fibers and neuromuscular coordination development (foot speed and stride length). That’s when winter arrived with fury...you got it too. All of the above will probably not impress a professional harness trainer…only one horse, a cheap cripple at that and what sounds like a lot of work. Actually it’s not much work at all (maybe 5 minutes a day per horse), will have more and higher classed horses and I don’t give a damn what anyone thinks. I too have talked to some European trainers, Per Eriksson two years ago said, “Joe, doing speed work with intervals and a pressure cart builds slow muscles”. Respectfully I don’t agree and intend to prove it but need higher speed work without resistance to do so…for me the missing link. With Allentown I think we need to re-set his central governor by building or perhaps better remodeling the underlying; Neuromuscular, Muscular skeletal, Cardiovascular, Psychological, Respiratory and Digestive/Nutrition systems to produce better results. With a 7 year old cheap pacer with crummy knees on a farm jog track by an amateur trainer would be quite a feat for sure. We plan to start posting Allentown’s workout graphs and overlays in FaCT Forum. Juerg, For sure we need a glossary of Terms and Definitions as a thread in FaCT Forum. I’m working on how to do that and may be close to a solution. Your posts are very credible and valuable. With all you have going on in your professional life with your Cardiac rehab center, FaCT and coaching…very impressive. Thank You! Leonie What do you think about James’ assessment, “[With resistance at some speed] I feel on my horse that the muscles were too strong like a muscle bound weightlifter.”? Karsten Sorry about the gender mix-up. We won’t be going dancing, at least with each other. Andrew You home yet? I miss our communications. How’d you do down there? Bill Pressey What’s going on? How about an update please. Marc-Andre Spring is coming. You and Belinda well? Karyn, Hope to see you at Del-Val and RU in March. Isn’t it about time you chime in here? Is Ken getting posts too? Ed Bowen Hope you’re reading this stuff Have a good one! Joe P.S. 1. With Allentown please be aware that to a large degree he worked only every third day until his knee sclerosis remodeled. Lots of walking with resistance at that time. We went to 5 days a week in October 2008. 2. I had a fun little trotter named R Blake. He had a life mark of 2:01 on a 5/8 mile track. After 3 months of development always using a heart monitor with lots of long slow distance and speed intervals with a resistance cart, he lowered his mark to 1:57.2 in may 2006. With him we also were successful working, without resistance, doing two continuous 3 minute mile intervals at 180 beats per minute and 90 seconds recovery. For the first time we also started playing with glycogen depletion/reloading. | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 212 Registered: 04-2006 |
Joe, We are just waiting for the weather to clear here in New Zealand (120km/h winds and 6 inches of rain) before we make last minute preparations for Ironman which runs on March 7th. We will be back home on March 10th, and in more regular contact at that time. | |||
| Leonie Advanced Member Username: Leonie Post Number: 23 Registered: 07-2008 |
Joe, There is not such thing as "muscled bound" with Allentown as you have done an extensive amount of cardiovascular work, at too low of a heart rate, I might ad. "Muscle bound people don't do enough distance training to have "stamina" or endurance. | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 57 Registered: 07-2008 |
Andrew, Good to hear from you. We're rooting for you and Ginny on the 7th. When you get back we have a ton of work to do to get our stuff beyond theory. To sell Courses(I & II), Lactate Analyzers, Heart Monitors and Resistance Carts we need to show real time results. Leonie Our cardiovascular work may not have been at too low a heart rate with our new awareness. Andrew and Juerg need to tell us why 20 bpm below LBP is preferred. J | |||
| Joe_geiser Senior Member Username: Joe_geiser Post Number: 58 Registered: 07-2008 |
Okay, it's time to wake up...Spring is almost here. Andrew is back from NZ, I'm crawling out of my late winter funk so lets kick some ass. So Juerg and Andrew, please tell me why we were working our steady state at LBP -20 for ST (Structural Training)? Today Andrew you suggested we do steady state (ST) "Just Below" LBP. You also stated, "We are referring to these types of sessions as "Stroke Volume" work, as there appears in our preliminary studies with the Physioflow, that we can dramatically improve cardiac size by training at this very specific intensity. The results will be easily measurable comparing LBP speeds over time. All 5 athletes we have been doing these types of sessions with 1-3 each week, have had dramatic improvements in performance. Juerg has been collecting data on just a few athletes, and because we do not have a Physioflow, we are forced to just view results." So please clarify, do you have a Physioflow or not? What is a Physioflow? Does improve "cardiac size" mean that this work will increase the size of the heart? How are the results easily measureable comparing LBP speeds over time? I look forward to your answers. J | |||
| Juerg Senior Member Username: Juerg Post Number: 1400 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hallo Joe and all horse coaches and readers of the section on horse training here. Please go and take some time , if you are interested on the section Physio Flow in our Forum and you can see some interesting ideas developping out of this new tool. Just short here: The Physio Flow is a tool from France and it is the first simple and easy to use non invasive method to assess cardiac haemodynamic. We can no test athletes and see live the changes in different cardiac reactions as they occure during a step test or even during a race. In 3 weeks Frank will do some initial and first time testing during the Paris Marathon to see cardiac reactions in a long race. The following parameters are on interest for us: HR = heart rate as we have a live ECG SV = Stokre volume in ml as the amount of blood ejected during the systolic action EDV = end diastolic volume in ml as the amount of blood in the heart just short before a systolic actions. EF % as the % of blood thrown out from the EDV or in other words the residual volume in the heart after a systolic action LVET = left ventricular ejection time as in ms to have the information on the opening time of the heart valve during a systolic action. LVET x HR will give for us a new idea on the so called CCT = cardiac contraction time or in simple words, the time per minute the heart muscles does not get O2.. And as well the SVR = systemic vascular resistance. which gives some info on the vascular reaction during incremental or in general exercises. There are many more information available, but for the moment this are the parameters we focus on . So if you like to read more or see actual printouts please visit the Physio flow section. Cheers Juerg | |||
| Andrew Senior Member Username: Andrew Post Number: 218 Registered: 04-2006 |
Joe, there is lots of evidence of different programs leading to structural development of mitochondrial density and improved performance. The problem with much of the data, is the extremely short duration of the programs analyzed. This is why there are coaches who believe that 30 minutes a day can lead to significant improvements in VO2 max and "anaerobic threshold". Though this might be true with the functional adaptations that occur in the first six weeks of a high intensity program, it does not equate to long term development. There are only a few programs which have been studied to show how structural changes occur over a period of months to years. These are the changes that we are looking for, and we have shown on numerous occasions the dramatic improvements in performance that can occur with a focused training program at intensities below LBP. The data we have collected in humans is undeniable. The challenge will be to find a few trainers (like yourself), willing to commit to a long-term development plan for a few horses to help prove that our theories carry-over to the equine world. So far, every aspect of the testing we have proposed has had a very clear correlation to what happens in horses. These trends were demonstrated in the many performance tests you have done with Allentown, and the 3 different LBP tests also done on the same horse. We are using these markers to assess how the training is affecting the physiology. We hope in the future, with the presentation we are preparing for Rutgers University, that we can convince some researchers to test our theories in a larger sample of subjects. The details of the physiologic changes will be covered in the course we are preparing for later this summer. |
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