Post Number: 2
|Posted on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 02:26 am: |
One of the most interesting parameters I've come across is the feet per beat calculation. Iver's did quite a bit of work with it.
The calculation essentially converts the feet travelled per heartbeat. The calculation is pretty irrelevant at fast speeds, or when comparing horses against each other, and for other things, but the area that has been deemed useful is as an athleticism predictor. I haven't done this myself, but it seemed to be quite clear that young horses (weanlings,yearlings) could be tracked on a standardized exercise protocol either by treadmill, or exercise "wheel" (free flow exerciser), and if you tracked the individual improvement of FPB (Ivers called in acquisition) you could pick out the potential better performers. The good ones would improve more off essentailly the same work. The anecdotal evidence was that these individuals, on average, improved faster and also had better performance overall. (ie. the slow improvers didn't, in general achieve the same levels of performance in the end) This would allow the potential to make a better guess as to which ones to cull at the yearling sales. This was not a serious training program for these babies, but just enough. According to those that had tracked it, it was a decent enough tool and did track with the horses that became the best performers when all horses went through similar training and later on. (In his books he advocated keeping track of this parameter on all horses in training as another tool in the toolbox)
Dr Paul at Hanover was looking at this at one time. Not sure if they ever did anything.
It occurred to me that this might be a similar approach to tracking the changes in LBP. If one could do it with young horses I wonder if one could see the same sort of acquisition.
In particular to the FPB calcs, the current technology seems ideal to track this stuff for free (GPS HR monitors, cart based systems, etc.)
With the pressure carts on the SB side, I have wondered if monitoring this parameter might give a useful zone of work (similar to a zone of maximum stride length, or a fixed pressure setting)
Ny one have any thoughts or experiences with this?
Post Number: 741
|Posted on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 07:00 am: |
This is a very interesting concept and it reminds me on a tryout on runners, where they used steps and respiration rate versus steps and HR to find some connections in controlling intensities.
Interestingly enough is one study , where a group of former students of W. Hollmann did a field study for his 50 aniversary on his University.
Here a simple summary"
They where assessing breath per steps and compared this with lactate values.
When runners where able to run with breathig 4 or 3 steps in and 4 - 3 steps out ( counting each leg ,) than there was very little if any lactate in the system .
When they where running 2 steps in and 2 steps out respiration rate, than they could see a start of increase in systemic lactate.
When the runners had to breath on each step in and each step out, than they all had clear a lactate accumulation in the system.
So a simple solution for beginners and up to higher level runners as long they run on a flat stretch.
I can see in horses that HR and steps my be a way to go , but I believe with the tools we have this days ( GPS and so on )we could possibly develop different similar ideas as well.
There are horse specific pCO2 testers available, as well as horse specific altitude training devices to try to change certain physiological reactions.
We did many years back ( 20 years or more ) some testing on Polo horses in St. Moritz and we used already at that time lactate as a testing tool to see the intensity this horse may be stressed during a polo game on snow.
The fun part realy was , that none of the hoses was ever pushed to the limit, as the guy on the horse was often in that bad shape , that the horse easy outlasted the rider .So the end product of that trial was to develop not a program for the horses , but a fitness program for the rider. ( Smile)
As far as "genetic " profiling is concerned :
I am surprised , that there are not ideas used in horses like VO2 max and or cardiac assessments on heart size and SV as this could be possibly done very easy this days with the tools available, like wireless VO2 testing over a mask for horses, (or Physio flow assessments wireless and non invasive) as they use a special horse mask for the intermittend and steady hypoxy workouts on horses to increase the EPO and therefor the transport capacity of O2 in horses.
But I am sure there are many good trainers out there in that field as well , working on unique and smart ideas to develop better and healthier training methods with horses, as it seems money is nearly more involved in that sport than in humans.
Last but not least :
In the Bejing olympics 11 positive drug tests in humans. 5 positive drug test in horses, and if you take the ratio human numbers in atletes versus how many horses, than you wonder how "honest" the work is done for the moment in that field of sport as well.
Post Number: 8
|Posted on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 01:05 pm: |
Juerg you have been my hero for months.
Karsten, who ever you may be, have moved very high up on my hero list. I love FPB and all its potential. As to Tom Ivers "Feet Per Beat" is not in The Fit Racehorse II. After reading your posts again will have more feedback and some ideas.
On Dr Paul at Hanover, I am not surprised there has been no response so far. They're really busy and still finding their new power. Pete (Paul) is a pretty cool guy and seems to be sincere.
You mention the resistance (pressure) cart on the Standardbred side and related evaluations which is good. Trust me on this, compared to the value on the t-bred side, the s-bred side is small. Resistance will help enhance bone mineralization and improve connective tissue all the while there will be no rider on the horse's back and we'll go very slow. Plus the trainees will have another opportunity to play...pulling a silly cart. Heck t-bred trainers will actually feel the reins/lines (a missing ingrediant?) as they will sit their fat asses on a cart behind the horse and feel the deal, not just imagine it.
Consider the cycle of the t-bred from purchase to track. The 6 months +/- after the yearling sale we introduce resistance work, maybe not a lot but once or twice a week pulling in steady state mostly but integrating some intervals.
Preston Burch in 1956 advocated starting the
t-bred to pulling a cart. "This activity will help settle any horse and provide another training game. Horses seem to become more respectful with shafts next to their back ends}."
What did God have in mind when the horse was created? Was it to pull or was it to ride?
I have not yet called Bob Bowman...waitin' for the right mood and moment. Will FPB be something new for him?
Small tiger. Long Tail.
I love you guys.
Post Number: 743
|Posted on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 03:01 pm: |
hallo Karsten , Here a nice abstartct from Australia .A. L. DAVIEa and D. J. EVANSb
a School of Exercise Science and Sport Management, Southern Cross University, Lismore, NSW 2480, Australia b Department of Animal Science, University of Sydney, NSW 2006, Australia
Accepted 7 August 1999. ; Available online 12 March 2002.
References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.
The associations between velocity during a standardized, submaximal 800-m exercise test and blood lactate concentration after exercise were investigated in Thoroughbred racehorses on sand and grass racetracks. Predicted lactate concentrations for each horse’s exercise test velocity were calculated from the line of best fit derived from results at each racetrack. The repeatability of the differences between the measured and predicted blood lactate response to exercise was also investigated. Exercise tests were conducted at speeds ranging from 12.8 to 16.6 m/s. The variability of velocity within the exercise test was expressed as the coefficient of variation (CV) of the times for the four 200-m sections.
On the sand track, the coefficient of determination for the lactate–speed relationship was highest for an exponential regression equation [lactate (mmol/L) = 0.08e0.33x(m/s);r2= 0.58, P< 0.05;n = 21]. Similar coefficients of determination were calculated for linear (r2= 0.56) and second order polynomial equations (r2= 0.57). On the grass racetrack, the relationship was best described by a second order polynomial equation [lactate (mmol/L) = −0.87x2+ 28.17x − 211.41;r2= 0.57, P< 0.05;n = 25]. The mean differences between the measured and predicted blood lactate concentrations in repeated tests were 1.9 ± 1.8 ( SD) on the sand and grass racetracks. There were no significant associations between the velocity of the exercise and the CV on either racetrack. Differences between measured and predicted blood lactate concentrations, based on track-specific lines of best fit, have potential application in field studies of fitness in Thoroughbred horses.
Author Keywords: Exercise; horse; lactate; thoroughbred; field tests
I think that this is a nice example , how the "old" human believe on lactate as a possibel source of fatigue interfers with the interpretation of many test now conducted in horses. So enjoy and compare with some directions in our ongoing discussion with CGM and other crazy ideas.
Post Number: 744
|Posted on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 03:07 pm: |
And here another one which may show the direction of lactate as a buiomarker for metabolic trends without need for RER realy .
Journal List > Can J Vet Res > v.60(3); Jul 1996
PubMed recordPubMed related artsPubMed LinkOutCompoundSubstance
PubMed articles by:
McDonell, W. Can J Vet Res. 1996 July; 60(3): 161–171. PMCID: PMC1263828
The relationship between respiratory exchange ratio, plasma lactate and muscle lactate concentrations in exercising horses using a valved gas collection system.
G M Gauvreau, S S Young, H Staempfli, L J McCutcheon, B A Wilson, and W N McDonell
Department of Clinical Studies, University of Guelph, Ontario.
AbstractA valved gas collection system for horses was validated, then used to examine the relationship between the respiratory exchange ratio (RER), and plasma and muscle lactate in exercising horses. Four healthy Standardbred horses were trained to breathe through the apparatus while exercising on a treadmill. Comparisons of arterial blood gas tensions were made at 3 work levels for each horse, without (control), and with the gas collection system present. At the highest work level, the arterial oxygen tension (PaO2) was significantly lower (P < 0.05), and the arterial carbon dioxide tension (PaCO2) was significantly higher (P < 0.05), than control levels when the apparatus was present; however arterial oxygen content remained unchanged. The horses completed a standardized incremental treadmill test on 4 occasions to determine the repeatability of measurements of oxygen consumption (VO2), carbon dioxide production (VCO2), inspired minute ventilation (VI), respiratory exchange ratio (RER), ventilatory equivalent for oxygen (VI/VO2), tidal volume (VT), and ventilatory frequency (VF). All gas exchange and respiratory measurements showed good reproducibility with the mean coefficient of variation of the 4 horses ranging from 3.8 to 12%. We examined the relationship between 3 indices of energy metabolism in horses performing treadmill exercise: respiratory exchange ratio (RER), central venous plasma and muscle lactate concentrations. A relationship between RER and plasma lactate concentration was established. To compare muscle and plasma lactate concentrations, the horses completed a discontinuous exercise test without the gas collection apparatus present. Significant relationships (P < 0.05), between plasma lactate concentration and RER, and between plasma and muscle lactate concentration, were described for each horse. The valved gas collection system produced a measurable but tolerable degree of interference to respiration, and provided reproducible measurements of gas exchange and ventilatory measurements. It was concluded that measurements of both gas exchange and blood lactate may be used to indicate increased glycolytic activity within exercising skeletal muscle.
Post Number: 3
|Posted on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 10:10 pm: |
Joe, FPB, efficiency score, and acquisition are in Iver's TFRII on pages 85-87.
Many things in TFRII are "old thinking", in particular it had the old lactic acid perception. Tom was one of the biggest railers against this old view but didn't figure it out until after the book came out. There are many other areas in the book that one could take issue with, most of which he readily admitted were out of date, but at its core I think it outlines a logical, but controversial, training approach.(Intervals)
Post Number: 10
|Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 02:11 am: |
Thanks for the specific point in Tom's book. Understanding FPB and Rate of Acquisition are ideas I need to grasp for my horses and for clients of Racehorse Conditioning Systems(RCS). http://www.rcswins.com.
At this point I have no idea how I will use FPB but am sure the ideas will come. I have read about 25% of TFRII over the years...not a good reader, more a doer and ADD at least that's my excuse. In any event some old thinking is in Tom's book but if he were still alive and healthy would probably writing updates. He and I ended our relationship on a down note when I did not follow his edicts to the letter. But in his day he could touch on it all and now some are carrying on his "stuff".
As to interval work short fast bursts of speed with well timed recovery periods are essential for the development of fast twitch muscle fibers I believe. Do you agree?
I googled you and found Millbrook Farm. So I called and left a vm. Call me when you can 570-722-COLT(2658).
Post Number: 11
|Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 02:18 am: |
Karsten, a P.S.
We could be talking about one of our resistance carts for Millbrook. It is a very valuable tool for horses recovering from injury.
Post Number: 1
|Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 12:11 am: |
First post here, you and I seem to have a lot of the same ideas.
I am here in KY and have been monitoring racing thoroughbreds in training with HR/GPS for the past several months.
I too believe that putting some yearlings in LEX through a standardized exercise protocol in a mechanical walker and collecting heart rate, speed, and blood info can help identify superior athletic prospects.
I have similar data, minus the blood info, from my 29 racing subjects - and the results are tied to performance a very, very high percentage of the time.
Who is this Dr. Paul at Hanover you mention?
Are you the same KH that posts on the ratherrapid.blogspot.com board?
Post Number: 141
|Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 03:40 am: |
Joe Geiser is working to put a small group of horse trainers together for a discussion week-end in order to introduce lactate testing from a FaCT perspective into regular testing sessions.
The addition of simple lactate measurements will certainly help you with your desire to identify the "superior athletic prospects", but could also play a pivotal role in helping you understand how the training you do with all your athletes is affecting their performance. It may even help some of the "less superior athletes" to achieve their full potential, with individualized training programs based on their metabolic responses to training.
Joe is a regular contributor to this forum. If you are interested in the FaCT Course we are hoping to put together for his group, please contact him through this forum, or by e-mail at:
mobile (570) 722-2658
Post Number: 2
|Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 03:47 am: |
Thanks Andrew, I've talked with Joe a few times over the past month.
Joe, definitely mark me down for this week-end event, I'd love to learn from you guys.
Post Number: 15
|Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 11:48 pm: |
Yes that's me.
"Dr Paul Spears" is better known as Pete and he's involved with running Hanovershoe Farms. (I could be mixed up but I think his Dad started the place way back when)
I've never met or spoken to him personally but he was a member of Ivers old internet forum and I always paid close attention to his posts. Being involved with one of the most successful racing enterprises around makes people like me perk their ears up.
Would be interested to get your take on the ideas involved on this forum. One of the key statements, posted by Marc-Andre I think is that the usual equine races are of shorter duration than most of the equivalent human training discussion. That said though, my personal opinion is that a heightened awareness and use of some of these tools can only help in the finetuning of exercise protocols, monitoring recovery, etc.
Just curious, do you train short to long or long to short? (If it can be generalized?)
Joe, I'm sure I won't be much of a useful contributor, but you can count me in for a FaCT session.
Post Number: 3
|Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 07:44 am: |
I just read some of Marc-Andre's points, and I too struggle with the concept of just how much scientific training can improve a thoroughbred's performance.
All sound racing thoroughbreds can sprint 3/8 of a mile in fast fractions and recover, but many fall apart afterwards, either at 1/2, 5/8, or 3/4 distances. Finding where they 'fall apart/fail to recover' is a great value in determining what distance to breeze during training.
In addition, those typical gallops described by Marc-Andre are remarkably similar from horse to horse as speed profiles are nearly identical.
BUT, winning horses achieve these workloads in submaximal heart rate ranges, while losers are typically near maxed out. A major precept of my training involves slowing those losers down, so that they can reap the phsyiological benefits they are missing out on.
I am not a trainer, and have no desire to be one. I do however, serve as a consultant to trainers here in KY - using HR/GPS/soon to be blood lactate as a fitness monitoring system.
I try to integrate my tools into the trainers protocol, and make adjustments to his way of doing things whenever possible. Something as simple as moving sprint workouts gradually from once every 7-10 days down to once every 4-5 can help horses become more successful at their level.
Post Number: 852
|Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 09:29 am: |
Hallo Bill. your concept of the few sprints building in a decent progam sounds very much what we would do in humans.
Same is rue with the max. heart rate and the submax heart rate in humans.
The concept of CGM ( central governor model comes in mind again .
Example . If pushing in humans to a maximal effort the CGM may kick in to protect life important organs from damage.
This would be heart , lungs and brain .
There could be a very similar "survival" mode in animals as well.
The classical theory of whipping the horse through pain may function a few times, but may back fire over time.
The key is to find an optimal horse to horse specific intensity , where we stress the different system , by improving the vital organs ability and therefor pushing the level of the "survival mode up to the next level.
In humans this is not done , as so many coaches belive with the "no pain no gain" idea, but rather with " no brain no gain " philosophy.
Using lactate in horses , as we see common in europe and now in north america by using absolute numbers like V2 / V4 as for 2 and 4 mmol is a major step backwards with all we know by now about lactate.
But I can see , that this 2 and 4 mmol concept will be accepted and used in horses, as we can prolongue an outdate view in humans and move it without any scientific back ground over to horse coaches. Any horse coach or horse consultant interested in the lactate dynamic in today's world would benefit from Dr. Andrew Sellars workshops . Have fun and enjoy the Forum. Very nice info on horses for our human athletes.
Post Number: 13
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 10:48 pm: |
FYI, New stride analysis system on the market.