Post Number: 350
|Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 12:59 am: |
An interesting question I got yesterday.
How does the increase in performance after plasma volume expansion can be explained by the CGM .
Based on the question was the point , that plasma volume takes place very externally and has nothing to do with the " vital organs ".
Let's give everybody a day to think about this and I will be back and try to give it some thoughts on here . Plasma volume expansion first and
CGM or ECGM and why with this model there may be a much easier explanation , than based on the aerobic / anaerobic model.
( Try to explain it with the later as it would be very interesting to see coaches working with this base line and how they explain the results.
Juerg have a good start into the new week .
Post Number: 45
|Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 04:10 am: |
I think a possible explanation for the improved performance with volume expansion may be the improved oxygen carrying state of the intravascular volume. That is, difference in the partial pressure of oxygen between the alveoli and plasma would be higher after plasma volume expansion. There would be no increase in the ability for Hemoglobin to carry oxygen, and hence no likely change in oxygen saturation trends. (Though with increased plasma volume, we do see decreased viscosity of the blood, which could lead to better delivery.)
Remember that a small portion of oxygen is carried in the plasma itself, and not attached to Hemoglobin. You can increase the total amount of oxygen carried in this form by simply increasing the volume of plasma coming into contact with the alveolar membranes. This increase in volume would decrease the partial pressure of O2 in the plasma, and yield a greater gradient across the alveolar membranes.
This increase in oxygen carrying capacity would presumably be quite small. However, if the athlete's limiting factor is oxygen transport, then performance improvements might certainly be a result.
Likewise, as decreasing the viscosity of the blood would also yield improved delivery to the muscles, we now have two potential benefits.
But, this is only if the limiting factor to the athlete's performance is oxygen delivery. This may explain why some athletes don't seem to improve with volume expansion. That is, there limiting factor may be oxygen extraction from the blood at the cellular level. In this case, the lower partial pressure of oxygen in the plasma, may in fact make it more difficult to extract the needed oxygen.
These are just some thoughts without having reviewed by physiology notes from 8 years back, so I will apologize for any mistakes in interpretation. I will leave it to Juerg to describe the affect or effect of the ECGM model on this subject.
Post Number: 352
|Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 01:07 am: |
Think about the opposite "dehydration" or hyper hydration.
Combine the idea of the classical aerobic /anaerobic model and the 2 above version .
In short :
teh classical aerobic /anaerobic model claims , that the muscle will start to lack O2 ( anaerobic) and there for will dictated the outcome.
versus the CGM or ( our ECGM) model will claim , that first the vital organs will try to maintain a proper o2 situation and in case that does not happened , the "brain" with all the corrections option will have a check list , who will have to drop out first on the over all "surviving " exercise.
So it is basically extremity limitation versus vital organs. isn't it.
True the body in its genial ability to survive has some help to survive left in the extremity muscles as well. Let's get you thinking a bit more and discuss it with yourself first .
All of you people have a nice day and stay tuned for more to come. Juerg
Post Number: 353
|Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 02:00 pm: |
Okay let's sit down and give it some thoughts here.
1. What is PVX ( plasma volume expansion) First we may have to divide between actual PV ( plasma volume ) and actual BV (blood volume expansion) The person , who got most famous in the first testing of PV and BV expansion in athletes was possible Ekblom and his col. from Stockholm (Sweden ) in the 1970 and up. Since than a very large number of papers were written and published with all kinds of results and ideas. Most of them rarely made a distinction between the above idea of PVX or BVX.
PVX is simply spoken an increase of fluid ( let's say simple /Water) without the addition of cell structures.
The BVX is an increase of fluid but as well an additional increase in cell structures ( mainly red blood cells ) some may have the word in their mind ( blood doping )
Here is the interesting point.
Blood doping (BVX) is relative complicated as you have a problem to make it on your own at home .
PVX ,? well it can be done relative easy and with a small risk . Well depending on what you know.
There is one common approach of PVX with an infusion of ( most used Dextran). True here you have a problem as well. But you can "produce " a PVX with a smart way of a workout in a very natural way , so no infusion no risk , just some basic knowledge on intensity control , duration and post exercise hydration.
Some of our athletes ( Geoff,Ryder, Marc Sontag / Martina / Kris Sneddon may remember when Wayne from Toronto was with us and we did "live blood analy." and combined that with ammonia testing and all the rest of poking around.
So for what is or was that good. The idea was to find the individual intensity and duration and the needed volume of fluid to take in for different workouts and racing.
Here a more accepted summary of some reasearch done by Hollman ( 1969 )
The basic idea was to follow Ekbloms idea of reducing the BV of a person by taking blood. Re-infuse plasma and later after certain testing criteria re -infuse the erythrocyte volume as well.
Very short summary with just looking at the parameters HR (heart rate ) and Respiratory Rate)
After blood volume reduction the heart rates and the respiratoric rate by a given performance where higher, indicating a higher workload on the cardio as well as the pulmopnary system.
After re- infusion of just plasma the heart rate as well as the respiratory rate moved lower but not to the pre -test situation, indication a lesser workload on the cardio as well as the pulmonary system but not a full " recovery" by the same workload.
The , at a later time , ( after reaching a pre -test value of HR and RR - as a possible sign of reaching a normalized blood cell situation ) re-infusion of the blood cells increased the performance by 9 % , respectively reduced the HR and the RR by a given performance clear.
This type of research was later done over and over in the USA mainly in the 1990 and up.
The results where the same .
A increase of PV reduced the HR and the RR by a given workout ( it interestingly never changed the thermo regulations )in most studies the improvements where in the area of 5 - 10 % ) Why were or are there differences.
One main factor may be the way they " pre-loaded" the athletes. ( meaning with what kind of intensity they did the test workouts.
There are different hormon involved as well as some proteins. One of the more "famous" one is the albumin. Some may recall the idea of BCAA substitute and tryptophan fights on the brain barrier . That's where the Albumin was involved as well as the "huckepack " guy of the tryptophan and the problem of the change in ratio of BCAA and Trypto. Hmm got lost here.
okay go back.
If you substitute just water you may have a problem of increasing PV after a wrokout.
The key is to workout in an intensity where you can assume that you will work as well with " nitric oxide production. So once you have your LBP you have a pretty good idea where this intensity will take place.
So why is that of importance.
Hmm far back at university ( 1977 up) I remember ( Prof . Schoenholzer) telling us, that you may feel somewhat dizzy after certain trainings intensities compared to others because you may have produced a "hypotension" ( lower blood pressure ) and this may hang with you over several hours and may be mediated in some cases by the accumulation of chemicals such as nitric oxide and other metabolites. This hypotension will create a nice gradient for increased lymphatic
drainage into the vascular space and with this will increase the delivery of our friend albumin and therefor an increase of PV ( possibly as well from interstitial fluid) So you actually can produce a naturally provoked albumin infusion. This way you are up with the guys , who hang on an albumin infusion to increase the PV. Interestingly enough the amount of PV increase with infusion and with the natural way is +- 1 % THE SAME AND IS ARROUND 9 %. ( I may come back and may go somewhat more into the endocrinoligical aspects of this Fluid balance )
PVX either with infusion or with natural training methods will decrease HR and RR by a give performance.
The let's put it very simple , thinner blood , is easier to pump for the heart and it will lower the heart rate as the stroke volume and the HMV ( heart minute volume ( the blood the heart pumps in 1 minute will be higher. A lower heart rate will reduce the "speed' of the blood moving by the exchange area in the lung ( alveoly and lungs capillaries) . This will increase the possible contact time for the diffusion of O2 from the lung to the red blood cells , which can help for a better loading of the red blood cells.
Now if we go to the aerobic / anaerobic model , that would be of some negative situation , as there is less blood cells per volume ( lower Hct) hmm there you see why you need to have a PVX if you take EPO ( smile ) If you go harder you will run out of O2 in the working muscles and you will start working anaerob. ( true ) the "lactic acid will increase and now you need the nutritional supplement ( see other thread) to not allow this.
There is one small problem . The heart muscle is "hooked up " in the same delivery system . Once the blood moves out of your heart some of it will be immediately delivered to the coronary blood vessels , so that the heart muscle can work. So the"lack" of O2 due to the high intensity will therefor be first felt in the heart muscle and the heart has to go anaerobic. ( hmm the rest may be a foggy story in the intensive care unit ? )
The ECGM would postulate, that the lower heart rate due to better function ( less work of the heart ) will allow the body to move more or longer blood and O2 to the working muscles , before the cardio stat will start to control further delivery to the working muscles , due to some O2 demand in his own muscles.
Summary . A reduction in heart work and respiratory work ( more efficient ) will allow a higher workout put by the extremity muscles.
Once a critical O2 demand is reached , so that the vital organs can't afford a further reduction in O2 , the "stats" will kick in to maintain a secure O2 situation in the vitalk organs and the extremity muscles will be turned down to avoid a "sucking " away of needed O2 for vital reason.
Now the key would be to increase PV but as well if the extremity muscles are trained enough ( enough mitochondria ) to increase the transportation system ( red blood cells ).
Now you see and may understand why plasma expansion combined with increase of red blood cells over EPO or re-infusion of own red blood cells or a kind of natural stimulation of EPO release may have in some athletes a very nice performance increase and in some nothing at all.
Not to state that I am for this ideas ,but at least if you like to benefit from it you better train many years very clever on your mitochondria density so you benefit from it if you ever try it.
The first olympics where the research went somewhat wrong where the Mexico olympics. The general believe at that time was, that the athletes need a high Hct.
I recall the "crazy " stroy of one of the swiss best rowers, who nearly died in Mexico with a Hct far above 50 and everybody was proud to have him up there.
This leads us to the discussion why Hct over fifty is not a doping rule problem and the athlets are not punished in that way but taken out of competition due to "health risk" A long flight and a race in altitude can create a low PV due to loss of fluid and a bad fluid intake and can move a persons Hct ( if already close to 50 easy above it) So good hydration during a flight and as well in altitude and dry climate is a very important health issue.
PVX is an excellent example for the functioning of the ECGM as well as a good ex. for some open questions on the classical aerobic anaerobic model. There will be much more discussion coming over the next few years, as the different approaches have a very interesting consequence on different research work done over all this years.
Remember the fact , that many of this PVX studies where done with creating groups , who got "stress" in workout intensities of 68 % of VO2 max.
( 30 % at least of VO2 max tests never find a plateau and therefor the VO2 max is a question mark )
The intensity of 68 % of VO2 max can some people n the oxygen dependent energy production but some as well into an intensity where some of the energy is partially produce by oxygen independent demand.
This will change the amount of nitric oxide production and therefor the albumin involvement. Less albumin , less PVX and therefor a different result, despite the fact that statistically they where working our with the same "workload" of 68 % of VO2 max.
Now you think this ideas further into some other research and than you may ask yourself some more questions.
So our idea at the time was to find out , where the limit was for certain intensities , and where the duration was to maintain this intensities , by not moving into a protein "distruction " . The only way we had due to limited budget and connections was over ammonia. ( An other way we did this in St. moritz was over Urea ( and at that time a supper small ammonia checker form a japanese company from Kyoto.
Now you but the individual intensity together in a workout , hope to increase the albumin and with it the PV and you add some IHT to it and you increase the natural EPO release ( after 3 days ) and now you hope you are a good responder , respectively you are sure, that your limitation at the moment is the O2 supply over the blood system .
Now here again you see why we try to find an assessment idea to hope to see where for the moment the limitation is and whether certain training, recovery ideas can change this limitations.
It is very interesting to see during a long workout using the Fit mate as a bio feedback , how hydration or dehydration change RR /HR and with this interestingly as well the FeO2.
Once this parameters change you have as well a change in VO2.
The change in VO2 can be the VO2 very clear. In my case a dehydration of above 500 ml dropped my VO2 by 4- 6 % ( from 35 to 32-33 ) and went back up to 35 as soon I started to hydrate.
Now assuming it is very warm and you have to cool the system you will move easy 500 ml of blood to the skin ( surface) so you can get ride of heat.
This would be similar to a de-hydration or a loss of blood volume due to blood donation.
The temperature controle ( core temperature ) is a part of the ECGM and the more important maintenance of the core temperature will reduce the available bllod to the working muscles.
The increase of the delivery area ( more open blood vessels ) will increase the work of your heart. This again is controlled by the ECGM.
Heat and heart will reduce the O2 availability to your extremity muscles.
This will speed up a need for faster ATP delivery , which can't be maintained anymore over O2 and FFA and you will increase the inclusion of oxygen dependent glucose usage.
This will increase the CO2 production.
This will stimmulate the respiration rate and this will increase the O2 demand for the respiratory muscles, which again goes over the ECGM and will further reduce the O2 delivery to the working muscles. This increases the glucose usage and with it you will see an increase of lactate in the blood system ( not as a a sign of anaerobic problems ) but as a sign of increased use of glucose and a higher % of energy production oxygen independent.
Hmmm why all of this here again.
Well you see how that all works and now you see why I have a fundamental problem to believe that we can use a fixed wattage number as a proper way of a training zone definition . Certainly if we are ready to look at this system from a physiological point of view instead from a mathematical point of view
. True if you can nor push the same wattage you are not in the same physical performance, but there can be different physiological reason why this is happening. So just neglect this physiological reaction may some times cost you nothing , but very often it may cost you understanding of missing reactions and missing performance.
So building a training system based on wattage is easy great and you need just a computer program.As long you progress you like it , once you have problems you have no clue why.
A training program base on some physiological trends gives you head ache and lot's of questions. If you are seeing progress you liek it and if not you may have some clues on where and what is missing and you can try to correct it early enough.
Hmm you are the judge.
Have a nice reading.
See that what happens if you ask a simple question. Juerg